After five years in Chile, I firmly believe that the best thing a Chilean can do to better his or her life is to leave Chile. Traveling is ok, but to get the full benefit, a Chilean should live and work abroad, ideally for at least a year. Working in another Latin American country is ok, but to get the full benefit, a Chilean should try to live and work in the US, Europe, China, Japan, Korea, Australia, New Zealand or another well developed country with a completely different culture and set of values. It’s easy to see the difference in attitude in a Chilean who’s been abroad and one who hasn’t.
Both upper class Chileans and non upper class Chileans should leave Chile, but for different reasons. For non-elite Chileans, their lives get instantly better getting out of Chile’s classist system. They instantly have more opportunity, are more likely to get evaluated for who they are, how smart they are and not their skin color, where they went to school or their last name. Non-elite Chileans quickly realize that lighter skin and blonde hair isn’t always aspirational in every part of the world.
They find lots of people who actually prefer darker hair and features and find them more attractive than traditional northern European features. When I talk with non-elite Chilean friends who go abroad, they tell me that smart, educated, motivated non-elite Chileans find both their platonic and romantic prospects much improved and I would imagine self esteem has to go up. Their prospects for success go up the moment they step off the plane. They have the chance to see that if they work hard they might actually be able to better their lot in life. After being abroad for awhile, many non-elite Chileans don’t come back for a long time, unless they have to. And many of the ones that do, have a different view on what’s possible.
Upper class Chileans should leave Chile to break down many of the attitudes they’ve grown up with. Many (if not most) upper class Chileans are overtly classist and nearly all are unintentionally classist. Many, if not most, don’t mean it maliciously, but do it subconsciously.
Leaving the Chilean bubble where life is easy, people live at home until they’re in your mid 20-30s, have a maid and don’t have to worry about much, is a wakeup call that shows that the rest of the world really doesn’t have it like you do. Upper class Chileans generally don’t interact with non upper class Chileans, expect in service situations, so really getting to know people from different backgrounds, who think differently and don’t come from the bubble builds empathy and understanding for others that they likely wouldn’t run across if they stayed in Chile. Leaving the bubble forces them to recognize their privileged lifestyle and gain a degree of self awareness that many elite Chileans are sorely lacking. (Many times, you see a similar effect from sheltered suburban kids in the US).
They see that (shockingly!) white people do manual labor in some developed countries. That some people find dark skinned people more attractive than lighter skinned people. They see that rags to riches stories are valued in other parts of the world and not looked down on as they are in Chile. They are given the opportunity to recognize that maybe Chile isn’t the best country in the world at everything. And that’s ok.
Both upper class and non upper class Chileans should leave Chile to see what it’s like to live in a society where service is excellent, people trust each other and are generally nice to each other in day-to-day interactions. They can see that being passive aggressive isn’t the route to success. That asking for things directly is probably the best way to get what they want. That saying no to things they don’t want is much easier than saying yes to everything when they really mean no.
They learn to be more independent and not to always be able to rely on their parents getting them out of jams well into their 20s. It gives them a chance to raise their expectations for Chile so that when they come back home, they have a new attitude about what is possible, what is right and how they want to live their lives. By far the best thing a Chilean can do is to leave Chile. At least for a year or two.
Note: I think the best thing someone from the US can do is to leave for a few years too, but if a US citizen doesn’t leave, the downside is much less than if a Chilean never leaves.
Edit to add: December 14th. This post went very viral and I’ve said this in the comments probably 20 times, so I’m adding this here. The biggest misinterpretation of this post in the last line, the note. Many are taking it to mean that I think the US is better than Chile. I’m not saying that at all. My entire point is that the US is much bigger, has more immigration, more tourism, more universities where you leave your comfort zone, different kinds of people in different cities so that your chance of meeting someone different from you is higher if you never leave the US compared to someone who never leaves Chile.
464 Comments
“Note: I think the best thing someone from the US can do is to leave
for a few years too, but if a US citizen doesn’t leave, the downside is
much less than if a Chilean never leaves.”
Sure, that worked wonderfully when a kid from Texas got to be President; didn’t it?
Living abroad has enormous benefits, regardless of the country, and Chile in that sense is no worse or better than the rest of the world.
I have no idea what you mean by your “Sure, that worked wonderfully when a kid from Texas got to be President; didn’t it?”, is that supposed to be george bush having never lived abroad? can you explain?
Chile is an isolated country where most people are provincial and really don’t know how things work outside of the country. In other countries, there much more exposure to foreigners and other cultures, so you don’t get stuck in the country club mentality like many chileans do. That’s why leaving Chile is more important that leaving other countries. In the US, Europe, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia etc, you’ll see other experiences and meet other people with different experiences, whereas in Chile the vast vast majority don’t and just assume that’s the way it is.
Yes, W was the reference; but it would apply to many in Texas and other places I suppose.
Not saying Chile wouldn’t benefit greatly from it, just saying it is not that different from the rest of the world; and at this point I’ve lived in 4 different countries other than Chile (US included). My point is that sure we would benefit, but more so than any other country? Sorry, I don’t agree with that; on a general basis of course, we’re not going into detail here.
For sure, there’s certainly many ignorant, closed minded people in the states, just look at what Donald Trumps been able to accomplish! Thanks for commenting and happy to agree to disagree on one of the points!
george bush is from connecticut, not texas.
Born in CT, raised in Texas.
I agree with some of the points you made in your article, but It seems as though you really do not like chilean culture, specially in this paragraph. Please remember every culture has its good things and bad.
“Both upper class and non upper class Chileans should leave Chile to
see what it’s like to live in a society where service is excellent,
people trust each other and are generally nice to each other in
day-to-day interactions. They can see that being passive aggressive
isn’t the route to success. That asking for things directly is probably
the best way to get what they want. That saying no to things they don’t
want is much easier than saying yes to everything when they really mean no”
We value politeness hence why we might be less direct than in other cultures and does this mean you believe people in Chile aren’t nice to each other? I don’t know, I’m sorry you had such a bad experience, but don’t judge a whole country based on your interactions. Also a lot of what you say is true for people in most countries
I havne’t had many bad experiences in Chile, it’s actually been great. There’s just some things about the culture that I don’t like and think can be improved, especially if Chile wants to compete on the world stage as a OECD, developed country. Just because there’s a list of things that I don’t particularly like doesn’t mean that there’s not a list just as long or longer about great things about Chile. Just not in this article.
I actually think that what you said is correct. It doesn’t matter if you like it or not.
I’ve been living abroad for almost 4 years now, doing working holidays and traveling Asia and Oceania and I can totally relate with the fact that even in the poorest countries of Asia the service is way better (or at least strives sincerely to be) and people relate each other with trust and kidness…and I can’t help thinking everytime what the hell can’t be the same in Chile? So then is clearly not about how privileged or not the people is but just a problem of attitude towards…i don’t know…life itself perhaps.
The life out of Chile gave me back so many things I already thought lost or impossible to achieve.
And yep…passive aggresive and always saving face, i’m afraid that’s correct. I’ve been remarked the same by many europeans and you actually don’t realize of it till you interact and/or work with foreign people or they describe the behaviour to you. Of course they’re not perfect either and I certainly don’t like some of their ways (lack of flexibility and improvisation sometimes) but clearly you get a better vision of yourself interacting within and/or with our cultures and certainly that makes you wonder a lot about your own “way to be”.
It’s sad but true. People is not nice to each other, I noticed the different just by going to the grocery store when I went back to Chile for a visit. Same with service, try to get your money back in Ripley or Falabella after returning something without the receipt… Etc… This is so accurate.
mm I didn’t notice any more kindness going on in the us than here honestly. If anything companies are even more willing and able to screw you in a more capitalist country like the US. And as for regular people being nicer that’s just plain not true
Great post, Nathan. As a Chilean that has lived in the US many years, I can say that you’re spot on. This is a very accurate description.
People in Chile don’t realize how classist the society is. It’s inconceivable for people from different social classes to interact with each other beyond the patron-servant relationship. Can you imagine a kid from La Dehesa sharing a meal with his nanny on the same table?! It’s actually very sad, and most Chileans don’t even realize that this is possible.
Let’s hope Chileans leave their secluded island and start seeing the world.
Exactly. I like to explain that the difference in the US is that an upper class gringo probably won’t have a meal with their mexican nanny, but if the nanny’s son gets an education and goes to university, he’d be happily welcomed into an upper middle class/upper class person’s home for dinner, or even to date their daughter. In chile, it’d be (nearly) impossible.
Exacto. I can’t imagine an upper-class Chilean girl dating her nanny’s son (even if they go to the same university). That’s just unimaginable in Chile.
This is the crux of why leaving is so important, both the upper class and the non upper class can see that these types of things are possible in other parts of the world.
what would you say to make americans stop buying so many weapons. We might not marry our nannies son’s but we are definitely not killing our classmates imitating GTA.. is it much more worst being a Sudaca then?
Again, your comment really doesn’t make much sense. I’m not lecturing you. I’m giving my opinion about opening your mind by being abroad for awhile. As I said in my other reply to your comment, of course the US has problems, but that doesn’t mean Chile can’t learn anything from other places, it’s just a really poor argument that lacks basic logic. And of course it goes both ways, the US can learn from Chile and other countries too.
That is a very good question.
Why do they kill each other? Is it readily access to firearms or social inequality or both?
We have more social inequality in Chile, but firearms are more restricted, and people don’t go killing each other.
In Canada there is not much social inequality as in the US, and people don’t kill each other either.
Canada sounds like a great place to live in.
And why taking different opinions personally? If you don’t like rifles, there are plenty of places in the developed world where you can’t buy them at the supermarket. Try as a chilean to talk about classism at a casual party and see how you score.
This interesting debate touches a nerve, not because Nathan is lecturing us in any way, but rather for having an honest opinion not cocooned in our ways. The sad thing is that we eventually get used to living in a classist society.
I am glad that most readers are open to a critical vision of our culture. It shows more maturity in an adolescent country as ours.
“Try as a chilean to talk about classism at a casual party and see how you score. ”
You must be all the fun at parties, dude.
Dating just in soap opera 😉
Maybe not dating him, but doing him, that’s very likely… if you don’t believe me you should go out at night to where 15 years old go… the girls are like super models… and the guys look like the sons of the bus driver… or even worse…
I mean, the new generations are mixing a lot these days, even if it is only for intercourse…
oh, man… your speech and way of thinking is so hollow and superficial, a clear reflection of the now materialistic youth way of thinking.
what you are trying to accomplish by telling people the way to improve their point of views about how they live and think, is so attached to material means, that doesn’t go anywhere near a real solution to the actual way their see sociaty, thiers obv, not yours. Spending some time in a place, won’t give you a revelation about it’s nature, sorry, but that is just a assumption, not a fact.
What’s material about treating people with respect? Losing classism? Valuing good service? Spending time somewhere won’t automatically make you knowledgable about that place, but the idea is that most people interact with the people where they’re living and learn something from their time abroad.
not geting it
I honestly don’t know what you’re trying to say here. Si quieres y es mas facil, cambiamos a español porque me interesa tu punto de vista.
you just made my point
How? I literally don’t understand your point at all. Either I’m dense or you’re not doing a good job of explaining what you’re trying to say. If you’d like to explain, I’d be happy to read it, if not, no worries.
Nathan. I agree with you that experiment the way of life in different countries is a really positive experience. Is good to be out from the Island. But also I agree with Amelia Borquez in the sense that to be chilean “Do not open doors” We (Chilean) are classist, that is a big truth but I lived in USA for 10 years and I experimented discrimination when I tried to get a job after Hurricane Katrina (In New Orleans) in 2005 and after the last economic crisis 2007-2008. And, believe me you don’t see many differences between be unemployed in Chile and in USA. maybe you can see some little advantages in Chile because you can still have free health (very bad, but at least help a little). I think you are right in the general sense of your idea but is important that people know that you can get mysery in Chile and In USA. But you get more opportunities in education and culture in USA and Europe.
” maybe you can see some little advantages in Chile because ?can still have free health (very bad, but at least help a little).”
I had the exact opposite experience.
In the US you csn get free health if you go.to.the right hospital. Some of them were created by donations made by wealthy people, since in the us there are a lot of wealthy people,and the photos or pictures are on the wall, and the wall says that no noe can be rejected because they couldn’t pay…
How many hospitals did piñera build with his own money? Zero.
That is a huge difference with the US.
The money to create the hospital, pretty similar to german clinic (clinica alemana) was something.like 4 million dolars, if I remember correctly.
Piñera has how much? 2,200 million?
In that case he could build 550 hospitals. How many did he build with his own money?
Zero.
That is a big difference in the US.
If the rich people do that in order to avoid taxes, I don’t care, as long as they are helpin: the people.
Actuslly.most.americans.think the government shoul.not help the poor, because otherwise they will never make some.effort to live above poverty. That is stupid. We know sweden help the poor and they have no problem. Actually americans would love to have the standard of living that the swedes have, but they can only dream about.
See the gilmore girls to.understand what i mean about the differences in social class in the US. Or see Friends first episodes when rachel escapes marriage.
Americans are.not being sincere when they say that our country is fine and we should see how america is. America is turning into another latin american country, and we know.that because americans are very bad liers. We in contrast have been lied every day ouIn entire lives by the government, the press, we can distinguidh when people.are lying from 1,000 miles away.
Sweden is not about to colapse. The US alnost collapsed in 2008. Sweden with just 9 million people is doing just fine.
The US government gave several hundred trillions to banks and the banks dissapeared the money in less than a week. So we know the banks are stealing in the US and the government does nothing because it fears being called socialist.
Thst is incredibly.stupid.
If someone steals, he should go to jail. Obama has no cohones, you know what I mean.
The great depression should be a reminder.because that is where you are headed.
Unless of course you follow keynesian economics and re-enact the glass steagal act.
Good speech Guillermo…
Francisco, escribe lo mismo en español. En realidad, no se entiende lo que quieres decir.
And supposing Nathan’s solution is materialistic (a concept I utterly don’t understand), could you illuminate as with your solution? How can we improve as a society to be more tolerant towards one another? Education?
I really don’t know who you’ve met during your time in Chile. I haven’t got the chance to live abroad yet, and I think it would be a great experience.
As I said, I don’t know where you have taken your ideas about the upper class in Chile. I was lucky to be born where I was. I’m greatful for it. I’m from what you call an “elite” class… In my house, there’s a woman that works as “nanny” and there has never been any type of discrimination towards her. I have launch with here, she sits at the table with us. I’ve been to her wedding, I’ve met their children. For Christmas she gives us presents just as we give her. She is part of the family. As you make it sound, is like being a nanny is not a worthy job. It is as respectful as being an engineer or a doctor. Probably, the person has to work as a nanny because she didn’t had the chance to study (and that’s an issue that we could discuss for hours, but the public education system is really bad) …
As I was raised in a higher class family, I went to a private school and most of my friends from school are from the same class as me. (A private school is expensive, and not everybody can put their children in that school, so it’s very possible you end up knowing people from the same class…). In university is different, and there I have met many people as you say “non elite” … And Ive made great friends and the social class is never a problem… The same in the places I have worked… In my “elite class” friends houses I have never seen one of them mistreat their nannys…. It’s the opposite. As I said, they often become part of the family.
I think that the person you described as upper class, someone who discriminates.. could exist, but it’s not the general.
Most of upper class have had the chance to travel, and they have seen that in other countries the discrimination for skin color is much less. However, even if you have lighter skin, after saying you are from chile, you can feel resentment for being Latino. (Not always, not everywhere. But in the Us discrimination for Latinos is much more evident) and for being Latin you are, many times, considered more ignorant. Latina that study masters abroad, often have to prove themselves and show that they are equal or even better than their classmates… That’s something I know from people I know that have been living abroad.
I think that leaving abroad could be incredible and a great experience … It will probably teach you a lot… But I think that you are saying that we should leave for the wrong reasons…..
Hi Magdalena,
Thanks for commenting. You may be one of the elite chileans who doesn’t discriminate, there are many who are out there who don’t. If you are, you’re setting a great example! I actually think most upper class chileans don’t discriminate overtly, they’re not doing it in “mala onda”, but many are doing it “sin querer”. I’ve been in many business meetings, asados and casual conversations with many people in the upper class and in my experience at least 90%+ don’t recognize their cuico privilege and how it makes their lives easier and other people’s lives harder. Being upper class isn’t something one should be ashamed of, just recognize that one’s life is much, much easier.
I’m not saying at all that being a nanny isn’t a worthy job, actually quite the opposite, anyone who works hard for their living is putting in an honest days work and deserves respect. I actually think you should treat the nanny like most people treat the CEO and treat the CEO like most people treat the nanny. I also agree that discrimination happens all over the world, (against women, against latins, muslims, jews etc) but if you grow up in a place where classism in institutionalized, you likely don’t realize that it’s not this way in most other places in the world.
If you get the chance to go abroad, you should do it!
I totally agree with you (I belong to what you call upper class) and I have lived abroad for a while (different countries like Australia, Canadá,etc). I have realized how privileged I am after traveling the world, seeing very poor and rich countries plus living abroad gave me a different view about everything I believed in before start travelling…people trust each other and if you are good you have thousands of opportunities no matter which class you are…that would never happen in Chile…so I agree with everything you have said and I must let you know this is a great article!
Hi Kay, thanks for commenting!
Privilege?
What do you mean?
Having a nanny?
Going to restaurants 3 times a week like most people in Europe do?
Having a privileged education?
To tell you the truth, no person in Chile has a privileged education. In case you didn’t notice, people with low grades and low resources became teachers. I don’t think learning from the stupid of the previous generation is a privilege.
Given that the education of poor people is a joke, even rich people get bad education too. Sorry to brake it to you.
People trust each other, that is true, not in Chile, not in latin america, in other countries, where people are not starving and the government pays you for staying at home. Call that keynesian economics.
Of course americans hate that, because it goes against their idea of “effort = profit”… And because of that Sweden is collapsing… but in practice Sweden is doing much better than the US and the rest of Europe… all the scandinavian countries have much better indexes than the countries that try to make people work as slaves…
If the Friedman and the Hayek model worked, Chile would run the world by now… instead of that it is really a complete waste of resources, housing costs have skyrocketed, food is incredibly expensive… and the whole thing is about to collapse economically…. look at how all the companies seem to be struggling to make ends meet… how all the projects seem to be stopped… and read the economy newspapers to see that there is corruption everywhere…
There is a very big cloud on the horizon… and the reason is that all the institutions are in question… People just realize that everything they have been promised is just a joke… an ugly joke… even americans think lower class chileans are the worse people and you should avoid them… even americans… who are lower class by definition… they hate chileans… they can’t stand upper class chileans because upper class chileans hate manual labor… than is so smart of you guys… of course it makes a lot of sense for upper class chileans to get into manual labor… so that they are tagged as lower class in a classist society that woul be happy if lower class chileans died of a rare disease… becuae as you have noticed… they steal, they lie, they are garbage…
Americans will never understand this…
The problem is not the americans… the problem is the economic system… forcing people to work so much for pennies will force them to steal… it is that simple…
Even upper class people steal in Chile… or you think all the banks, all the credit cards like “la polar” have lower class people behind them?
The main difference is that some people steal money from your drawer… some people steal money from your bank account…
Does it matter?
They are all burglars anyway.
I disagree that upper class chileans “have it easy”… Easy what? They are morons. Have you seen any upper class chilean create something like google? Or facebook? I mean if you have all the opportunities in life, you should be able to create something special. Nothing good comes from this system, because the system is based on exploiting workers. That doesn’t work. It it did work, Chile would run the world… instead Chile is irrelevant in the world order of things…
Latin american people in general are insignificant… they are unable to create anything useful… their brain is totally disconnected from their body… and I really think they are brain dead… maybe their cerebellum still works, because otherwise they would be unable to breathe… their sheer lack of brain power is amazing… if it weren’t because of all the natural resources we export, Chile would collpase into the paleolithic.
Who is to blame really?
I think the VAT is the real culprit here.
The US doesn’t have the VAT. Europe is almost the same in size as the US, but you don’t see the same amount of economic activity in Europe as in the US.
You’re so full of hate. It´s a waste of time to explain more to u if you have that attitude..anyways my opinion is mine and I agree with this article 100% 🙂 I will always be happy to share my ideas about how Chile could be a better country. The problem is the culture (people that criticize everything and do nothing to make it better)…if you change the culture, then u get a better country learning from the best ones. That’s how it works. Following first world´s countries is much better than staying in a hole of distrust and racism in every way. If you want to get better, learn from the best!
Maybe someday we can leave our laptop on the restaurant’s table when we go to the ladies room without thinking someone else can take it. Then we can say the culture has changed…
“The problem is the culture (people that criticize everything and do nothing to make it better)…if you change the culture, then u get a better country learning from the best ones. That’s how it works. Following first world´s countries is much better than staying in a hole of distrust and racism in every way. If you want to get better, learn from the best!”
I cannot agree more with you.
Now, what makes you think that the US is better than any other country in the world?
Do you know Sweden?
Do you know what Swedes think about your country?
Do you mean that because the US went to the moon, everything in the US is better than anywhere else?
Because I’m pretty sure French food is much, much, much better than food in the US. I don’t know if you are getting the idea I’m trying to say. Being good at something doesn’t mean you are good at everything.
“You’re so full of hate. ”
What do you mean?
“Maybe someday we can leave our laptop on the restaurant’s table when we go to the ladies room without thinking someone else can take it. Then we can say the culture has changed…”
You mean like in Sweden, right?
I thought you were a guy… guys don’t go to the ladies room. 😉
I think we have not understood yet the real implicances of Neoliberalism Model in Chile, maybe this year we had the opportunity to discover a partial part of the problem, with the scandals of our political class and some companies. However, for me the problem is not the economic system, although this is the cause, the origin. The real problem is the cultural state of Chileans, and the extreme lack of education. And the problem with the culture is time. Changes in cultural terms are slower. Eliminate the segregation is the real challenge in all the dimensions of our Chilean reality. If we are not able to overtake this as society, Chile sadly wont be a developed country.
“I think we have not understood yet the real implicances of Neoliberalism Model in Chile,”
hayek, Friedman,thw whole idea is to pay lower salaries.
” maybe this year we had the opportunity to discover a partial part of the problem, with the scandals of our political class and some companies. ”
That is such a socialista and leftist attitude… As if in russia there was no corruption. It simply makes no sense.
“However, for me the problem is not the economic system, although this is the cause, the origin. The real problem is the cultural state of Chileans, and the extreme lack of education. ”
So all problems xan be solved with education?
During the industrial revolución in ebgland people were very poor. The way this problem was solved all around the world, was to reduce the number of hours people were allowed to work per day and paying people to stay at home, in what is now known as keynesian económics.
“And the problem with the culture is time. Changes in cultural terms are slower. ”
It will not solve itaelf if that is what you are thinking.
“Eliminate the segregation is the real challenge in all the dimensions of our Chilean reality.”
That is stupid. The stupid kid will not get smarter by sitring next to the nerd. The nerd kid will get more stupid by sitting next to the stupid kid.
What this government is doing is destroying public education and because of that the problem will Only get worse.
“If we are not able to overtake this as society, Chile sadly wont be a developed country.”
Chile cannot be a developed country. How are you going to integrate 17 million people in a system where nothing is produced and therefore people do nothing?
This country Only extracts natural resources. If that doesn’t change, everything will remain the same.
People in chile are worthless. It is impossible to pay good salaries if the money the whole country gets is not enough just to pay for the salaries.
Just saying. Do the math.
Extreme lack of education. Extreme lack of information. I agree. On everythigng else, I cannot agree with you.
Culture is the **result** of time, something you receive since you are born, by your parents and all of society. You seem to imply that with time, culture with change, and yes, superfically it changes, all the time. Superficially we are all americans because the american culture gets widespread audience on TV series, on the movies, etc.
It doesn’t mean here in Chile we aren’t all chileans inside. We come from a slavist society. When the spanish arrived to Chile, Chile was poor, they were like 200 spaniards and brought 20,000 mexican indians. So our “culture” is a mixture of spanish and “yanacona” indians. It is lie that we chileans are all europeans. Some studies have been done and 70% of the males are european and no less than 80% of the females are american genes (indians). In other words, the european males were banging the indian females. That’s our reality, like it or not.
Slaves. That’s what the Spanish brought. The slaves were workers (the spanish despised work), so the males were used as mules and the females were sexual slaves. They had children, and the sons of slaves are slaves too. The people didn’t have education? Yes, that is true, education was only for the upper class, and the spanish upper class didn’t need to work, work was for the slaves.
Of course now things are different, americans have flooded everything with their culture, but have you wondered why chileans or any other latin american country has not produced a Google, a Facebook, or anything for that matter?
Our cluture despise work. People are not compensated fairly. Therefore they always steal to compensate for their extremely ridiculous low wages. Lower class people even tell you that they steal with a proud smile. As if it were something to be proud of.
Slaves always steal. It is their only survivial skill. Women aspire to be hookers since their early years and men aspire to steal. Sorry, but it is written in their genes. Even upper class chilean women have fantasies about having sex with guys who have a lot of money. Like it has really been written in their genes. And they don’t realize it should be something to be ashamed of. They tell you like it is the most fantastic thing on earth. Why? It is written in their genes, generation after generation, through natural selection… or atificial selection… depending on how you look at things.
Segregation is not a problem, or at least, it hasn’t been a problem for americans to be a superpower and keep all the black people living inside the US, in a bubble, there even is BET (Black Entertainment Network). Have you seen some thing so segregated in any other country? I haven’t.
We don’t have anything even close to BET or anything segregated like that. To me, it is frightning to even think we could have segregated channels on TV. What’s next? Segregated neighborhoods? You have those, we don’t. People are segregated here based on income, not on skin color. We think that the way you think is sick and pervert. It is not like I can go to the US and tell people they are sick and pervert, they won’t understand, because they have been living in such apartheid their whole life that they don’t even understand what I’m talking about.
I’m not saying the US is doing it wrong, but clearly segregation is something very real in the US, in some cities you see police brutality in the open against black people… and believe me, I have never seen something like that in Chile. Not even remotely. Actually I have never seen in Chile a policeman take out his weapon.
I can’t even imagine how it got so out of hand in the US, or how to fix it. Would you issue a law that all white women must have children with black males and so forth? Of course, you can’t. There are not enough black males in the US. And it would seem pretty immoral, even if the last purpose was to make a more melted society. You should know some people in Chile have african roots. But they got mixed with the rest of the people and now it is really hard to tell them apart.
But going back to policy for reducing the apartheid in the US, there are enough white males in the US for black women to have mixed race children. But in the US that is almost an escandal. It is so rare. I saw a family… only one family… in which the women was white and man was black… the interesting thing was that their children looked like latinas. Pretty beautiful, by the way.
White people in the US think the black race is so inferior intellectually, and by the way, so are the latin americans. Well, I cannot testify on the contrary. It is almost sick how stupid people are in this part of the world. Bad genes? Bad education? Stupidity promoting culture? I don’t know, maybe the 3 of them.
But the ignorance of americans is apalling. One of the first cities in the world existed in Africa, and we could say it is the nest of civilization.
http://observationdeck.kinja.com/5-awesome-african-civilizations-that-arent-egypt-1688047907
So the next time you think africans are idiots, remember that europeans were living in caves when Africa already had cities. Then why african americans are so stupid? I don’t know, but clearly it must be the american genes, because they alone were pretty smart. I suppose it has to do with education. I always hear that public education in the US is crap.
When I was in France I read about an african american was went to live in France and he was surprised on how friendly the “whites” in Europe were to him. He was living there for a very long time and forgot about being disregarded. Please take into consideration that most europeans think americans are incredibly ignorant. I can testify to that.
Anyway the segregated people are the americans, not the chileans.
That americans have this segregated vision of the world, and then whenever and wherever they go, they see exactly the same patterns everywhere… well, pal, that seems to imply that americans, inside their brain, seem to think they are living in the US, wherever they go… they just bring the US with them in their imagination… and can’t seem to experiment the real country they are living in.
Maybe it is because you are just too young, or you don’t ask the right questions, … or maybe it is because you don’t realize when people are lying just to be seen in a better light… which in Chile it is 120’% of the time… such a bunch of liers… I don’t know.
Do this: Ask a chilean if he is racist. He will say no. Ask if he is classist. He will say no. Ask him what he thinks about people who have money, about people who do menial jobs like the maid. He will contradict himself. Ask him if he realizes that what he is saying is contradictory. He will say it is not.
It is that simple. The lies are so deep, they can’t even realize the contradictions. And I’m talking about all the society, not just i few brain damaged people.
u can say exactly the same about developed countries and semi developed countries.. first world countries dont see themselves as privileged, and u are saying that living as a well developed economy is something chileans should learn, cause we are so unadvanced.. but rich countries push their standards into smaller economies and are being dependent on developing countries for the last 3 decades.. first world feel like there is the only way to achieve development.. we might not smile at starbucks.. but we dont have 300 massacre a year.. in your “developed country”. Why u think u are so advanced, u are failing to see that America is much more than Williamsburg and people smiling with their latte, and its NOT CUTE. U are suffering from hipster first world city privileged citizen syndrome, and you are PATRONIZING.. u just didnt like Chile..
Disagree completely. Of course the US has problems, but that doesn’t mean Chile can’t learn something from the US/Europe other developed (or in the case of customer service/being nice, undeveloped countries too). This is the same basic comment “the US has problems, so don’t comment about chile.” I don’t understand this attitude at all. Chile has some things that are better than the US/Europe, the US has some that are better than Chile. This post was about opening your mind and seeing the things that are better in other countries. It doesn’t mean that Chile isn’t a good country too.
“I’m not saying at all that being a nanny isn’t a worthy job, ”
What is the definition of worthy?
Because when I was in the US is was impossible to find a nanny.
If american women thought it was worthy, they would have accepted.
The only reason we have nannies is because people are underpaid in Chile.
I understand your reason for being polite… not to say politically correct… but in reality, we chileans… we know you are lying…
Our lie detector is much better than yours because we lie at each other all the time. Americans lie 8 times per day. We lie 8 times per second.
Every second letter in a word is a lie, that is why some letters are not pronounced in chilean spanish… our brain knows thoseare lies and skip them…
Not sure if going private school and have a nany describes what Nathan says “elite class”. Elite class. I imagine families with seceral nannis, several houses, several trips abroad, of course several luxurt cars. And of course, lot of travel or at least short lived abroad. Dont thing Magdalena qualifies for thst no offesnse. a
Magdalena, having grown up there, I remember hearing this nanny argument very often. Yes, they are nannies, but “we treat them so well”, they are “part of the family”. I realise that for many people, this is unfortunately true, because the parents are gone most of the day and therefore, they become a substitute of their missing parents.
But please, don’t say this is equally respectable as a doctor or engineer. Do we want to treat them equally? Then they should be paid similar salaries. They should be able to to have Saturdays and Sundays free, spend time with their kids and not yours, they should live less than one hour away from the place they work, their health benefits should be similar and so on. It is not enough for us to say “oh, but we treat them so well” simply because it is convenient for us.
Ask yourself a simple question : do you think your nanny wants her kids to have the same job? If not, then we have to learn as a society to live with some domestic help (paid by the hour) , but not this 24/7 person, who is there to do everything we are too lazy to do ourselves.
Magdalena, I am chilean too, from the “ellite class”. I have lived in 4 countries and I absolutelly agree with this post. You wont notice the real problema until you really live and work in another country. Your case is exactelly the case Nathan is talking about. You dont notice the problema because you dont have the experience to compare….and bealive me: the differences are much more that Nathan placed here (for example, outside Chile, I never heard the question: “in what school did you study?”. It would be something absolutely ridiculous, but here it is normal). Saludos.
A few month ago I met a divorced girl who had 3 kids… she was almost 50… and she told me at which school she studied… and asked me where I attended school…
I thought she was kidding… she left school about 30 years ago…
Really sweety???
Why didn’t you ask me where are my great grandparents buried?
That would really make interesting conversation…
Lol
Cual es el nombre de la ¿”nana”? por que no es solo la nana debe de tener un nombre.
The truth is that being elite in Chile is the same as being middle class in the US.
Same clothing, same schools (or same kind of education), same car, same kind of housing, only more danger in the streets in the case of Chile… And probably the same kind of ignorance about the rest of the world… People in the US are so ignorant that if they hear you talking in Spanish, they think you are mexican… and they even ask you if your son speaks mexican…. Come on! You have a border with Mexico and you don’t know people under there speak Spanish? Ok, Americans are more ignorant than chileans, which makes me wonder how stupid is their education and how stupid is the “no child left behind” policy… which I hope we won’t ever copy… but it seems we are starting to spudly start to copy to avoid discrimination…. We start making everyone as dumb as a pie and later we will wonder why they start killing each other…
Class doesn’t really mean “how much money you make”, it really means “what kind of job you do”. The amount of money is the severily reduced economist’s point of view, and that had pervaded pop culture… So really if your dad is a doctor and one of your classmate’s dad is a lawyer, they are in different social classes, even if both can afford a good school for you and your classmate…
About the nanny “being part of the family”, that requires a whole sociological study, which I’n not able to provide for you, because unfortunately I’m not a sociologist…
I’ve heard that so many times. And I really don’t understand that, because I consider that kind of people to be lower class than me, especially all my nannies, I have always considered to be lower class than me, not because they do manual labor, but because they know less, since a class in not about how much you make but how much you know about the subject you perform in society…
Also: who is following orders from who? Social order is about that too. It might get really shocking to you if the only dimension you understand is money. Two doctors are in the same social class but they can have totally different incomes, if one makes 2 million a month and the other makes 20 million. So why organize people in social classes? That is why organize the people according to the jobs they perform? Because people who perform the same labor day after day tend to think the same way, that’s why.
But anyway, I haven’t been able to identify the source of the meme “my nanny is part of the family”… I can only wonder if that is a ancient roman trait, given that famula (literally “slave” in latin) was the name given to nannies in ancient roman times… and as you probably know, the dominus (literally “master”) owned them as did whatever it pleased to them, usually having sex with them in fornt of the wife (roman society was very open about the dominus… welll… owning their slaves… usually making roman orgies with their wives included… as probably you might have seen if you watched the Spartacus series)…
Anyway, I really hope she wasn’t part of your family in that way… Please don’t get offended, I really don’t mean offense to you… I’m just saying…
It always amazes me how naive and ignorant chileans are… no matter what social class they belong to… I cannot get used it, sorry if I ruined it for you…
Germanic tribes also had slaves, but never inside their houses… the slaves did what they wanted all year long, and only paid taxes once a year… Maybe that is why nannies never “were part of my family”.
If you have a better explanation, it will be welcome…
Nice points Nathan!
Hi Amanda, Thanks for commenting!
Every year I see a different “visionary” gringo that comes to Chile and think that can tell us how to live our lives… After 7 years in California and 8 years of marriage to a gringa, I can tell you that there is no secret formula.
Chile is classist, the US is racist. So many shades depending on the individual experience.
There is no secret formula, travel and open mindedness is as fruitful for Chileans as it is for most honest, hard working, good but clueless American people.
Patricio, Two things. First, I’m a gringo, but certainly not a visionary, I just call them as I see them. Second, Chilean classism is just racism, but most chileans will never admit it.
I still stand by the fact that Chileans will get more out of living abroad than the average person from the US or Europe. Chile is geographically isolated and has an extremely closed culture (just starting to change now). Getting out of the bubble is a great first step.
I kindly disagree with this. Most gringos or Europeans could get waaaaay more out of living in a less developed country. I have traveled and more than once I have been asked: what’s is chile?
(What… They don’t even know it’s a country. Come and ask them where it’s located …)
And I’m not speaking of a farmer.. I’m speaking about other travelers… In trips that are not easy.. From people that have been raised in developed countries – and not only Europe or US, let’s add Australia) I’ve heard the most awkward questions… Like what? You have shopping malls with expensive brands? What? There are tall buildings in chile? What? You have an iPad? Or worst..
Wow! How did you learn to speak English so well in a Latin country?
So no… I completely disagree to what you say that a Chilean could get more out of going abroad. People from developed countries have never seen poverty. living in a country where there’s still an important percentage of people that live in complete poverty teaches you a lot.
I agree that the bubble you live in is bigger when you come from a developed country and have never traveled. Even people that are from upper class in chile and have friends from elite class and never come out from your circle, have seen poverty and know that there are things to be solved
Once, in Michigan the kind lady who was hosting me, try to teach me how to use the remote control. Once, in college, these gringos were in our campus and one of them was very impressed we had clothes on and an airport! Liking your comments here, Gabriela! Un abrazo desde Gringoland.
sure, people are ignorant everywhere. i mean people from the coasts in the US have no idea where wisconsin is, its pretty normal.
Nathan Don’t waste your time trying to make understand your point of view to non-open mind people, In my humble point of view, Chileans don’t accept constructive criticism,I know that because I use to be like that 12 years ago. If you said something which makes us feel uncomfortable We just attack back, like the people here bringing the worst side from the country you are from (US). For instance,if you were from India they will say something stupid about the caste system.
In summary, a Chilean does not leave the room until they get you back as we don’t take constructive criticism at all!. The best thing ever happen to me was leaving chile for good as makes me feel in peace with my self because i don’t have put up with people who don’t listened or take feedback as a constructive way to improve your self and overall makes a more peaceful, mature and emphatic country.
I am very happy that the some one like you have written a piece reality about Chile. Chile is not gonna fully grow until the people focus in solution rather than the problem.
My regards to everyone.
Ed, you’ve hit the nail on the head re: accepting constructive criticism, its another thing that could have gone in the post and another reason to go abroad. Because in many other countries, you realize that constructive criticism isn’t a personal attack, its actually potentially helping you improve or do a better job.
Well, americans don’t take critism very well either…
Some chileans go line “hey gringo, mind your own business”… And I understand that really makes no sense, but I have not, in any way, made personal attacks on you, that I aware of, but you also feel like I’m attacking you.
In that respect, I don’t understand why you would consider my opinión just as a dismissal of yours. I think you are right on the spot, chilenas should travel more, but come on, being classist is not the same as being racist.
Only an ignorant chilean could think that, since people in chile really live in a bubble and has a severe brain damage to even try to begin to understand a foreign culture.
I agree 100% what you said.
Otoh, getting out can be of value…but people is chile are classist because they are racist?
That’s like thinking we are a small versión of the US… We are not, sorry, our history is different, we never had racism, basically because the spanish did everyone, and they were a lot of races when they arrived anyway… Just because they were invaded by many races, romans, people from the the north of África, who ruled spain for 700 years… Also celts and germanic tribes…
Once they got to chile they were like 200 people and brought like 2,000 indians from México…
Also there were like 1 million indians living here…
So you wanna be racist?
How?
It wasn’t possible… And it is Impossible to these days…
Then about 200 and 100 years ago a lot of europeans arrived… They were really poor when they arrived… They were discriminated for being poor…
I think that is the source of the reason why there is so much classism in chile, but I might be wrong… It might come from spain… Or even the visigoths… I’m not sure…
Do you know that in europe people are racist against chinese people but not agai st black people? Do you know why that is?
“n Don’t waste your time trying to make understand your point of view to non-open mind people, ”
While I agree that chilleans are close minded and severely lacking any ability to understand foreign cultures, ridden with mediocrity and full of shame about that, with an inferiority complex that makes them a unique case of study…
I don’t think nathan really understand our culture… He just imagines that people in chile are racista… Chilean people should look in the mirror… Most of them are ugly as hell thanks to all the mexicana who arrived with Pedro de valdivia…
70% of the male genes in Chile are european… 80% of the female genes in chile are endemic, that is, amerindia…
Sorry to tell you this but very few people can really consider themselves of european descent…
Not that europeans are the cleanest bloodlines in the world either…
Just saying.
For those who consider themselves descendants of hitler, he was the grandchild of a jew, so I don’t know WTF you are talking about…
Nathan, sorry, but that is not normal…it is a big failure on american education…
I hope we don’t copy the big failure that “no child left behind” policy is…
Hahahahha
That borders on crazy.
We have access to cheaper, better technology than they do.
Americans are incredibly technofobic compared to us. Even at companies where they develop technology… They think they are so SMART, it makes me laugh…
The Only reason we chileans are behind is because we think we are stupid and therefore we prefer all things to be of gringo origin instead of chilean… You want to sell chilean technology to a chilean?… Tell him it is made in gringolandia…
I think you are being too puntual, I agree that in some well developed countries they don´t have idea about Chile but remember that we “have” to know about them, they dont have to know about us, that´s the way it is, like it or not.
For all of those who have seen the show ” El Chavo” , I can tell´em that Chile (and specially the Chileans) are seen as the “Kiko” of the neighborhood (Latam) because our bad attitude , arrogance, looking over the shoulder, and things like that. Remember that after the “Caballito” in Argentina a major part of our countrymen had the chance to travel to Bs Aires and coming back almost as the owners of that country just because that “first time” that the currency change benefited us. I could give you lots of examples about that, I will give you another, “La Copa América”, me as a super fan of fútbol , I´m very ashamed and sick of some chilean arrogant comment about feeling the king of kings, and throwing that “superiority” without put theirselves in perspective withing the continent. (Uruguay have won 15 times that trophy, Argentina 14, Brazil 8, etc) . The well known racism against Peruvians is something that I think i will not have to explain.
So, if you think that been “stranger” of the reality of the world ( actually third world countries) is far more important that all these examples is a signal that the one who is ignorant toward his own reality is you.
“I think you are being too puntual, I agree that in some well developed countries they don´t have idea about Chile but remember that we “have” to know about them, they dont have to know about us, that´s the way it is, like it or not.”
Not necessarily true.
We could buy their products and think they were developed in más and we simply wouldn’t care.
The reason we know about them is because the TV shows them all the time and because of hollywood.
When you get there you are surprised that the cars and the buildings are so old.
It doesn’t match the idea you get while watching the movies.
Also, you learn a word or two while watchinng movies.it turns out the translación is usually a lot more polite than the actual meaning. You end up saying a lot of expletives without knowing why people look at you in astonishment.
Maria Jose, you are right to say that people from developed countries would benefit from traveling to underdeveloped ones. Everyone should travel (and hopefully live there for a while) because it teaches that what you always though were common values shared by the whole world, are not. We judge others from the perspective of our own values (what is considered to be respectful, for example). There are some things we’ll hold onto for the rest of our lives even living in another culture, and others will change from the exposure, but the result will be an improved version of you. If you stay in your country (or city, town, etc.), with people that will never make you question some of those values because they are accepted as the universal truth, you will never know that there is another perspective to things. That teaches you not to judge so easily but to think where the person is coming from. Culture has so many layers and it’s fascinating to unveil what lies beneath. So, yes, traveling is useful and a life experience you SHOULD go though.
When you say that people from developed countries have never seen poverty, that is absolutely not true for the US. The level of poverty is even more striking than in Chile considering this is the wealthiest country in the world. There are people sleeping on the streets in below freezing temperatures, people that have to work 2 or 3 jobs and stll can’t make ends meet, single mothers that have to live in shelters with their children because they don’t have a home. You don’t have to travel far. You see them right there, at the train station because it’s the warmer place they can find in winter, on the streets begging for money, Poverty is a reality here. I’m sure the same is true for Europe.
And one more thing. When I was still living in Chile, a “foreigner” told me that Chileans were very unfriendly. I was in shock. I’ve come back to Santiago several times over the years, and every time I discover that, at least Santiaguinos, are quite unfriendly…with me. It;s very difficult to break in the circle and be accepted when they don’t know you. Many times I’ve been completely isolated and nobody talks to me because…they don’t know me. I end up very frustrated and sad in my own country. I feel like a stranger in my own land. Maybe that changes over the time, but the first time they know you, they are not friendly at all. Do you know how I found out? I had to leave Chile to see it with new eyes. That’s what living in another culture gives you, the possibility to get some perspective with distance…even if it hurts.
This is so true.
In the US, the government give you stamps so that you can buy food for pennies on the dollar…
And it is as easy as cutting food stamp from the newspaper.
My en ifw used to that not because we were poor…but because we are chileans, we love to get all the free stuff we can get, even if we don’t need it…
You know, the chilean way of thinking…
Do you know that all mercedes in chile don’t pay taxes?
The reason?
The old pinochet exiles can get a car without taxes every few years. They sell their permit s to people who want to buy expensive cars.
Don’t tell me people in chile don’t like the free stuff. I know my people very well, they all think like crooks and they even get proud of stealing like that… Something that in the US would be considered to be… Well, under the normal moral standard, here it is considered as a medal…
Chilean classism is pigmentism, not racism. ‘Upper class’ Chileans, as you call them, are proud to have Picunche or Mapuche or Diaguita blood, even when the Basque and German and British genes are fairly dominant (they’re also generally proud of the working class origins of their northern European forebears). Only the aspirational types think they are white.
Bob, maybe you’ve met other upper class chileans than I have, but I’ve never heard anyone, with the exception of some of the german descendants in the south, say anything close to this…
Or maybe just talked to them more. Chile spent its entire colonial period as a backwater, and has had a pretty streaky last couple of hundred years. Every ‘upper class’ Chilean family is full of what the gringos call their log-cabin stories – ancestors who hew something out of nothing. It doesn’t mean there’s not plenty of snobbism as well, but the love of relative whiteness isn’t quite the same thing as racism.
Nathan Don’t waste your time trying to make understand your point of view to non-open mind people, In my humble point of view, Chileans don’t accept constructive criticism,I know that because I use to be like that 12 years ago. If you said something which makes us feel uncomfortable We just attack back, like the people here bringing the worst side from the country you are from (US). For instance,if you were from India they will say something stupid about the caste system.
In summary, a Chilean does not leave the room until they get you back as we don’t take constructive criticism at all!. The best thing ever happen to me was leaving chile for good as makes me feel in peace with my self because i don’t have put up with people who don’t listened or take feedback as a constructive way to improve your self and overall makes a more peaceful, mature and emphatic country.
I am very happy that the some one like you have written a piece reality about Chile. Chile is not gonna fully grow until the people focus in solution rather than the problem.
My regards to everyone.
Thanks Ed, although I can’t actually see how that links to my comment.
haha, sorry i have put it one line below where the comment supposed to be. have a nice one Bob.
Oh, cool. I was confused, because I didn’t think I was being that rude either to Nathan or to generalised Chileans, and thought I was giving constructive criticism of his constructive observations!
Yeah you right Bob.
na… getting out of the bubble will be a terrible mistake for any Chileno that lives in Chile, I firmly believe because of “that bubble” has kept out all the bad energy from coming into that “isolated Nation”. That “extremely closed culture” as you refer to Chile is what makes a Nation great. And believe me, I hope that Chilean people will never change their values, with all their idiosyncrasies Chile is one of the best after my new home country Canada to live, you just have to put apart all the isms that you found when you visited Chile. I think that if you want someone to have an open mind it is not up to you to tell, it is the person(or the Nation) will to do it.
We are so lucky to have this thing called Internet that any human can have a different way of seen things, namaste.
“Chilean classism is just racism, but most chileans will never admit it.”
Well, i’ m sorry to tell you this, nathan, but classism is fairly different from racism.
For example, the chilean tenis player macelo chino ríos is ugly to most chilenas… When they found out he was a millionaire, in dollars, almost all of them thought he was incredibly attractive.
How do you explain that?
He could be black… Most chilean girls like black men, because they are supposed to be well endowed… And by that I don’t mean the money… Then how do you explain that?… I know you consider that all people in chile look the same… But some people are descendants of black slaves… You don’t notice that because people have intermixed so much you can’t tell any longer… You Only find out when they tell you, after 10 years of marriage… And no one really cares…
In the US that is such a big issue because … Sorry I cannot explain that because I don’t really understand that… Aren’t all americans originales from somewhere else?… How can they prove they are not intermixed?… Europeans are intermixed… In case you wonder…
I lived there… You cannot lie to me… Americans are just ignorant of their own origin, because… Well,most americans are ignorant of almost everything… That is a good source of jokes in “yurop”…
I know you are trying to be supportive and I’m being a jerk about that… And that is unforgivable… You mean good, I do too, the Only problem is that you need to study things a little deeper… Being shallow is not a great merit when you try to explain people why they should change…
Sorry if I’m being extremelly rude with a person so well meaning as you are… But your generalizations are completely wrong, not because they are generalizations… But because they miss the point completely…
Americans have a wonderful culture… That is very explicit and completely shallow… The reason for being so successful is that people can talk and explain things… Which makes people argue and the best argument wins…
A simple solución to having 98% of the people from different countries. I really like that, as you can objectively experience.
Here the culture is the opposite, we never talk about anything… Everything is a matter of shame… Nothing can be discussed really… That means every generation is dumber than the previous one…to the point our culture, being even older than the american culture, is regarded as being even more idiotic than the american… And the real problem is that it is really more idiotic, unfortunately.
“I still stand by the fact that Chileans will get more out of living abroad than the average person from the US or Europe. Chile is geographically isolated and has an extremely closed culture (just starting to change now). Getting out of the bubble is a great first step.”
That is so true. Unfortunately, people who don’t read need at least 3 generations to dismantle all the idiotic ideas from their little brains.
Sorry if I offended you in any way, but the american culture is about t3lling the brutal truth… Isn’t it?
Or I misunderstood something?
I’m a Chilean and i”ve been living in Australia for half a year now, and i think this article is completely right in every single point. Also you cannot use the word “racist” in a demeaning way and then generalize about “clueless american people” its just not coherent nor cohesive and it doesn’t help your point at all.
Hi Alex, thanks for commenting, I hope you’re enjoying Australia and get a chance to see the great barrier reef at some point if you haven’t already, it’s on my top 10 list for places to travel right now!
As a Chilean, I completely agree. This was so close to home it hurts.
I have been learning Polish (from all languages in the world, I am learning Polish and I don’t have any roots or Polish partner) for about 2 years and most of the negative comments I’ve got were from Chileans of my same kind, who would tell me Poland is grey, depressing, ugly, poor and filled with crime. No country is perfect, but the way I see things is simple. Some people can find happiness just by going around the corner, other have to travel across the world or so. It is something like that children’s show called “Angel, la niña de las flores”.
We really need those wake up calls every now and then.
Also, many people like to quote that Prisioneros song, “¿por qué no se van del país?” whenever you criticize anything (even more if you are foreigner or talking about touchy issues). It’s such a personal decision. There are many people who would love to, but they probably have debts to pay, families to help or even don’t want to face criticism from everyone in their circle.
Hi Cristobal, thanks for commenting! You picked a tough language…good luck with it! Don’t let the hate haters get you down, I doubt any of them have ever been to Poland anyway!
Do you know why people live at home until they are 20-30 years old? Because in Chile, if you leave home at that age, the money that you are going to make is not enoght to pay the rent. Is NOT because we dont want to, is because in Chile the minimum wage is VERY LOW and the rental price is VERY HIGH. There’s a lot of people who have kids and they are married and they still have to live with their parents because they dont have enoght money. Also, there’s a lot of kids that have to pay for there own university studies while they are studying and obviously they have to work AND go to school at the same time. Do you think they can leave home and pay for food and rent if they are doing that? I really agree with a lot of things that you say, but seriously, I dont think you really know how things work in Chile. Its so easy to say “hey! You should do this and that” but really, i think you used to hang out with people with too much money. And here in Chile, most of us are not like that. Also, i think you are talking mostly about people of Santiago… Because if you go to the south or the noth of Chile, people are FAR to be “passive agressive”. Actually, people from regions are very sweet and very very nice. They are not agressive or passive agressive at all. Im sorry you feel like that about chile but from my point of view, you lived a high class life in Santiago, and you just talked to people from other classes and other cities, but didnt understand another lifestile beside the high high class of this country. Easy life in Chile? Omg… Thats like 1% of the hole country.
Hi Sol,
I agree, some people don’t leave because they can’t afford it and I certainly have sympathy for it. This post isn’t directed at them.
I understand that only 5% of chileans make $1m per month and half make minimum wage, and certainly not students. It’s certainly not easy. I have friends from all sorts of backgrounds and have lived in many different comunas in Santiago and understand the differences between the rich and the rest of the country. My main point is that more people than currently do could live outside of their home if they wanted to. Maybe its only the top 25-40%, but they could do it. People in Colombia, Brasil, Argentina and other places in Latam are able to do it much more than in Chile and all of those countries have worse economies.
What i mean is, yes, you are talking about chilean people, but you are talking about the minimum of us. Also, when you say we are passive agressive, i mean… I really think you didnt go to the south of Chile because people are so nice over there… Besides, when you say that, is like you are judging our personality instead of trying to understand why we are like we are… i think maybe you dont know very much about chilean history, because if you look at or history you would realize that is very rough. We had an awful dictatorship and we are still fighting the consecuenses of that. So yes, maybe we are not happy all the time, but thats because of our history. I mean, i really get your point and really, i agree. The only thing is that, I thing thats only ONE PART of the story.
Sol, I think Nathan is really talking about the mayority. On one hand, like it or not Santiago has the largest concentration of people of the country so if I have to use an example I would use Santiago instead Chiloe, Arica o Pto Montt. On the other hand I can see that phenomenon everyday. you dont have to live as the poor people here in Chile to know that in other parts of the world you´ll have better chances of broking the line and have a better life.
I think you are taking it too personal with a little of nationalism and historical facts that they´re not only have affected to our country, remember that in europe they had 2 world wars, in one of them they had to lead with the nazism, so take it easy with that.
I´m absolutely agreed with every point that Nathan wrote and you know what was my first thought after reading it? Why has to come an “outsider” to tell us something that is so damn obvious, no other Chilean can see that? and my answer was: for sure the ellite class does not want to be aware of that, and many other of non-ellites are too busy trying to feign and being classist-aspirational as well.
The ellites have to stop that inward looking, because they are creating a fake reality that you (the non-ellite) are willing to buy, where you can maybe have easier acces to a LCD screen but not to education and health, so afterall they can keep living in their bubble and you will remain at the end of the piramid.
Renato, I don’t think I said anything innovative. Judging from the mostly positive response, many Chileans already had a similar opinion, but didn’t share it massively. I think that’s really the only difference.
Correct, I have the very same opinion, the funny thing is that nobody say it loud in Chile, and when someone like you write about it becomes such a big controversy.
Hi Nathan,
I believe that it isn’t about the money, but about these young Chileans learning how to spend their money and plan for the future. It’s real easy to live at home at the expense of your parents and go out clubbing or on outings with friends….they don’t have a care in the world. Worse yet is when you see that they not only don’t move out, but they bring their significant other to live with them at their parents. This is something that when you’ve been abroad you don’t see. I recently took in a young couple from chile (sort of giving them a helping hand), and they came with that mentality of “I work Monday-Friday 9-5 but I must meet new people and get to know the sites the rest of the time. Well let me tell you that I schooled them rather quickly on the facts of life. They now have a deadline for when they need to get out of my house and get their own place, and for that, they are working 2 jobs to save up their money. They are learning about the meaning of independence and respect for others…..I am not their “mama” so they have to do everything for themselves. But yes, I loved your article and could tell you some crazy stories of when I went to Chile and how I was treated by the elite based on the color of my skin…..the only thing that allowed me into some of their circles was my last name and that I could afford what they sometimes couldn’t. But as I tell most people here….”Asi es mi gente Chilena”.
very interesting, thanks for commenting!
Best read of the week for every <40 chilean!
Hi Uri, thanks for commenting, I appreciate it!
How do we solve this issue eficiently?
It’s a big issue to solve, but I would start by offering government grants to help chileans study abroad, either in high school or university. I’d push chileans who qualify (nurses, dentists and other healthcare professionals especially) to take advantage of programs that let them work in New Zealand, Australia, US, Europe. And I’d keep allowing more foreigners to come to Chile. Really make it the melting pot that the US once was famous for being. It’s much more complicated, but I would at least start with the low hanging fruit.
By hosting more Miercoles Po parties, so Chileans can get gringa girlfriends and leave asap 😉
hahaha, thats a great comment!
True story!! Hahaha that’s how I met my girl… she’s from UW Madison and now lives in SCL with yours truly 😉
those are great concepts nathan! & Alejandro im doing my best here to solve this issue in my way hahahaha
As a Chilean who lived in the UK for a year (and is about to leave again for 4 years in order to undertake a PhD course), I agree with most of what you described in this article, Nathan. You have to leave Chile to realise how bubble-shaped the Chilean society is, with all its disgusting biases. Further, all this is strongly related to economic differences among Chileans and, at the same time Chile is one of the most unequal countries in the world so it’s like a never-ending vicious circle. However, I think there is a misconception about Chileans when it comes to skin colour. In my opinion, Chileans who have never left Chile tend to discriminate over accents, economic income and family origin, but not so much about skin colour. Perhaps that discrimination is applicable to older generations, but people under 30s seldom discriminate over the amount of melanin you have in your skin. Anyway, I don’t have any statistical data to support this. It’s just based on personal observations. The Chilean society, unfortunately, has always been a bit like this. For instance, Darwin wrote about his personal experiences travelling around South America and addressed this issue. When he landed in Buenos Aires, people there asked him what were his plans in Buenos Aires, after which they invited him to a barbecue. When he landed in Chile, after explaining his plans, the locals asked Darwin in an unfriendly way: “But what are you doing here and when do you leave?” I think Chileans of today are much more friendly and open to foreigners, but our society still has these bubble-like mentality. A bit like our geography: isolated.
Hi Renzo, thanks for commenting, especially about the darwin story!
As a non-elite chilean guy who spent a few years in the U.S., I appreciate your viewpoint but disagree with the last sentence o your note. It is sad to realize that even some aware civilized people are not conscious how harmful is their life style to many others. Have a good day.
What part do you disagree with? And why? Would be interesting to hear your perspective.
I couldn´t agree more. As a Chilean living in Colombia over 5 years I could understand the value of living and experiencing Chile from outside. Although we share with Colombia similar values and problems (as any developing country) Colombia is classist as well, in its own way, but there are aspects of the culture that make you think where Chilean can improve (manners, service quality, respect for others, etc.). I recommend Chileans go other countries to stay for a while, not necessarily a developed country. In my personal experience it helped me to understand my paradigsms, ways-of-doing, missconceptions, and predjuces. Cheers.
Hi Gonzalo,
Thanks for commenting, great perspective.
Do you know what people in the rest of latin america think about us?
It is not pretty. We are seen as arrogant, cheap, closed (people in most latin america know you and immediately invite you home), they go to lunch to each other homes, they are really nice to each other… and they see chileans as snobs (sine nobilis), people who don’t have noble titles, but act as if they were, what we call “siutico” here in Chile, we think everyone else is “roto”… all around the world… and it turns out that most people around the world are of humble origins… if you think for example the americans had a revolution against the british, the british being the noble, the americans were the commoners… and the commoners won…
Like in Ancient Roman times, when the roman empire was collapsed by the Gothic and germanic tribe invasions, the new rulers freed the slaves, and the freed slaves created their own enterprises and became rich with their own work… the same happened in the US.
The same in France, the same almost everywhere in the world… the freed slaves had the land in their own, their work belonged to them, they became rich.
But in latin america, there was no revolution, at least in Chile it was the spanish “criollos” (creole) who did the independence from spain… in other words, the same colonial system, only run but the locals instead of the monarchy is Spain… that is why the goverment treats people like garbage, the public system, being schools, hospitals, you name it, is in ruins, and it is a shame… People who became rich in Chile are the ones that use modern slaves for their own benefit, exploiting natural resources.
That fits perfectly the ideas of Friedman and Hayek, so the Pinochet economic model has been so successful, even state run universities are for charge, like private universities, this is the only country I know where state run students have to pay… and we pay even more than in the US, when adjusted for income level… And this explains why most university female students have to pay for college by becoming sex workers… in a country where sex work is legal…
Isn’t it interesting that Friedman and Hayek propose a model where the state provides close to zero protection to people, which mean that some of them will become very poor… and some women inevitably will become prostitutes… which is like saying this is state sponsored prostitution… this model by the way is very similar to the one that the romans had. The roman sponsored prostitutes were called “lupanar”, the place where “women wolves” are stored.
what a bunch of crap. this happens absolutely everywhere. i would think you have never been to europe, situations like the ones you describe happen in every single country in there.
americans are so clueless and live in their own bubble where they look down on everybody else. seriously, with a country whose politics, economy, trust in each other, etc is falling apart… as we would say in chile, just a bunch of “superioridad moral”. you would do better trying to fix your country (or smug self!).
btw im not saying chile is perfect. just that it has its good and bad things… just like everything else!!!
Ah yes, the anti-US, fix your own stuff before commenting Chilean. Very typical.
Of course the US isn’t perfect, we’ve got tons of problems, especially with Donald Trump finding some success right now. But that doesn’t mean my critiques of Chile aren’t valid. Do you care to comment on anything directly, other than attacking the messenger and setting up straw man arguments and false equivalencies?
I’m sorry but as a Chilean who lives in the EEUU, I can honestly say that the one thing the ticks me off he most, is some smug Chilean who hates the USA but damn if they don’t want what is here or copy what they can. It’s particularly true of those who tend to have certain political tendencies….they will bash the U.S. and state that it’s the Americans (Gringos) who look down on Chile. Truth be told, gringos could care less to look down on a country like Chile, especially since we contribute nothing that is of concern to them. As for your references to the economy, politics, crime, trust and such….please, they’re over 370 million individuals here, compared to the craziness that occurs in Chile where people lived caged in their homes for fear of crime…..there is no comparison.
And you’re right, no place is perfect, but don’t get so bent out of shape when someone points out the obvious…..Chileans need to get out and learn from other nations. Maybe then you will find respect for self and others….and this I say because as a Chilean, there is nothing more sad than knowing that from the moment I get off the plane, my interaction with my own people is going to be stressful due to their mouths, disregard for others and plain straight out nastiness. The best Chileans I know are the ones who live outside of Chile and who show their pride in positive ways.
Spot on, Nate! Kudos 🙂
Hi Franco, thanks for commenting!
while i can see why your post has seemingly garnered support from chilean expats and foreigners who live/have lived in chile alike it seems to me that you are ignoring the reality of the chilean immigrant abroad. you presume that meritocracy exists in developed countries, both empirical and anecdotal evidence would actually tell you that this is not the case. the jobs that immigrants get in the rich western nations they move to are – almost always – dependent on their their ethnicity and their accent. immigrants with heavy accents are more likely to end up in under-skilled jobs or manual labour, occupations that do not reflect their merit but rather their new nation’s proclivity for diversity.
you are also ignoring that individuals tend to replicate their network patterns, rather than expand them, when they are in new locations. in other words, individuals look for and consolidate new social groups with people who are similar to them in age, class, and other factors. the idea that privileged chileans will in fact establish meaningful relationships with those who do not share their privilege simply because they see that the mexican nanny’s son went to university is fallacy. people with privilege are, at best, simply exposed to tangential events of egalitarianism and, at worst, blind to them altogether. contact theory – or the idea that close proximity and exposure to otherness would lower an individual’s aversion to otherness – developed by allport in the 1950s required at least 5 elements to be in place for it to be successful (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_hypothesis). walking through a university campus that is full of otherness is not enough to get people thinking about their own deeply entrenched biases.
i also believe you are ignoring the systemic issues at play in a country such as chile. for example, it is easy to think that chileans are staying at home because they are lazy. yet to reduce the many-layered social issues that chile has to a lack of global perspective understanding is to reduce the daily struggles of many who are trying to change the place to a failure of character. yours seems to be an article full of over simplifications and sweeping generalizations that really amount to nothing more than an opinion that while echoed by many is neither new nor innovative. chileans have been leaving chile for decades and the problems you describe remain.
a final note would be to perhaps note that the insularity you speak of is not a phenomenon that happens in chile alone, there are many rich, western, liberal nations that are equally as insular and inward looking. to pinpoint chile for flaws that are common the world over seems, to me, rather unkind.
Thanks for the well though out comment, although I disagree with a few points. I appreciate it. Let me clarify a few things:
1. I think its definitely easier to move upward in the US/Europe than it is in Chile. It’s not nearly “the american dream” that many people talk about, but its clearly easier to move up in society outside of Chile. When 50% make the minimum wage, 85% make less than $600.000, 5% make $1m per month or higher, you really have a small chance of moving up, even if you’re smart, work your ass off and get lucky.
2. A massive difference is that in the US/Europe, once you’re educated and have a decent job (I agree, it’s very hard to pull yourself up in the US too, there’s lots of privilege in the US too), you’re not really going to be exposed to overt discrimination, whereas in Chile a really smart person coming from the bottom won’t really escape their “lower class” origins. They won’t be accepted into the club. In the US, once you’re educated/have a decent job, you’re in.
3. I’m not saying just meeting other people will get them past all of their biases, but speaking to people from other origins leads to cultural understanding. It’s not a magic bullet, but I believe it helps. I think it’s what made the US special for so long, and it’s something we’re losing now as the rich get richer and we move closer to a Latin American distribution of wealth.
4. I don’t think Chileans don’t leave home because they’re lazy. I think they don’t because of strong family structure, conservative ideals and in many cases a lack of money. I think many Chileans who could afford to live outside of the family home in university, or when they have their first job don’t because it’s the path of least resistance, family pressure and an unwillingness to take chances. I don’t view it as a character flaw, rather something that if changed, will improve quality of life for the people who are able to break away.
5. Of course insularity isn’t only a chilean problem, look at rural US populations, or marginalized workers in Europe. But from my experience its deeper and more far reaching in Chile than many other places I’ve been.
Thanks again for commenting, would be interested to hear more of your thoughts.
re your reply:
1. income inequality and wealth distribution is a terrible problem in chile, agreed. however, to think that everyone (without exception) in rich nations is equally mobile ignores the fact that, for example, in the us alone half of the us population is poor or low income and that poverty is an entrenched multi-generational problem that has its roots in the way in which capitalists economies are built.
2. while you can, justifiably, argue that class discrimination is less prevalent in developed nations there is increasing evidence to suggest that the ways in which discrimination occur are far less evident in richer nations – and not less prevalent – some examples are: https://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/18/racism-discrimination-employment-undercover
http://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-bosses-are-racist-when-its-time-to-hire-20090617-chvu.html
3. the rise of extremist right wing movements and the consequential political gains that they have achieved would indicate that while that is a nice idea things are not as rosy as you make them out to be. some notable examples were the race riots in the uk which prompted research into how well certain communities got along, the results showed that despite living in the same town two communities lived almost completely parallel lives, never talking, never engaging. article here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-89307/Britains-races-leading-parallel-lives-says-report.html
full report here:
http://tedcantle.co.uk/pdf/TheEndofParallelLives.pdf
4. i would only say that perhaps you should look at the increasing number of people that are moving out of home and organising alternative modes of living in communities. your point while true, ignores the fact that we are a communitarian people. perhaps chileans need alternatives that are not just “living alone” but rather living in communities with like minded people that allow them to retain their sense of community.
5. your evidence is anecdotal and anecdotal evidence is not generalisable. but for the sake of argument, i’ll counter-argue with my own anecdotal evidence; i’ve been living in australia for 9 years and the insularity of this place far exceeds the insularity of chile.
But it’s not fair: you’re using arguments, not feelings!
– it’s better to have an under skilled job in europe than in chile period
– the people who really wants a better life, a change in their lives, and specially, a change in the way of thinking, it’s going to find it easier away from chile, it does exist the ghetto style (replicate their network patterns meeting people of same age, class and other factors) but when you want to open your mind you don’t go to europe to rest with the same people that you know in chile… don’t think every immigrant has a basic mind, he’s talking about that, not the immigrant who wants to have more money in a easier way, he’s talking about expanding your brain and it’s clearly easier away from chile
i agree florencia, working a minimum wage job in a wealthy country is better than a high-skilled job in chile. this is a simple fact. but do you really think that the ‘hijitos de papa’ are working under-skilled jobs when they go to the us or europe?
i also agree that, often, expanding your mind is easier when we are away from chile. what i am saying (to use a simplified analogy) is that when we travel minds are expanded sideways and up, they are not expanded down. that is, they are not expanded to include people that we consider to be below ourselves and what we want is for every mind to expand in every direction.
to actually address the problems of inequality, discrimination, and of a small elite having all the privilege there have to be fundamental changes in the way that privilege is spoken about and understood in chile.
my main point is that sending privileged kids to the us or europe is not really going to make them more inclusive. my other main point is that the us and europe also have problems of inequality, discrimination, and of a small elite having all the privilege and so we should not fall into the trap of believing that everywhere else has figured it out except us.
Thank you Paula, for use some reason in this “feelings-about” conversation. To travel is great for anyone, not only Chileans. That’s isn’t any revelation. And the first world destinations (and their morals) aren’t the only options. (sorry for my non-elite Chilean level of english)
thanks diego! i think too often we are told what to do and how to do it that it gets a bit old. it’s not that i don’t agree with the basic premises put forward by this opinion piece – though it does leave a lot to be desired in terms of academic rigor – it’s that i think the proposed solution is not a solution at all.
i think the best thing chile can do is address its own problems in ways that are productive; redistribution of wealth, ensuring that basic needs are covered for like housing, health, and education, a good system of public transport, accountability, transparency… the list is long. and while i think there is obvious merit in looking at what other nations are doing and imitating the positive models it is disingenuous to tell people that simply travelling will solve our mentality problems. it is also replicating the every-man-for-himself model because you have to be able to travel with your own means and money and we know that not everyone has that option in chile.
Totally agree with your post and comments! all this is one of the reason because I don’t want to come back to Chile, because I learn for many years to live in a sociaty where YOU are the important and not your background, the school you was or your surname; where you can live without a nany or all this bullshit we are use to in Chile. I move to Europe with 24 years old, now with 36 I’m glad to live in a country (England) where all the people if they work hard have the same opportunities… Thank you for your post and for your point of view; I’m chilean but I can reconized the bad we have like a country and that discrimination is one of our plage…
I do agree with Nathan article in most of what it’s stated,and after living abroad I have witnessed that some Chileans change their actitud after a while… And stop talking complaining and comparing everything to the spotless Chile as a centralised view in their mind. However, I agree up to some extent with Paula. Many Chileans would meet up only with similarly close-minded chileans and living abroad wouldn’t signify a substantial change in mind. Read the article “La vergüenza de ser Chileno” And you would understand my point.
http://www.eldinamo.cl/blog/chilenos-inmigrantes-estados-unidos/
I agree with Paula. Althought Nathan makes an impotant point regarding the unequal chances and opportunities in Chile and gives an excellent advice, the blog gives the impression that developed societies are able to absorb foreign talents and hard working people without discrimnating. This is a very optimistic image that does not necessarily correspond to reality in Europe. Having lived for 10 years in Europe, I can tell you that there is a difference between spending one year as a student (Nathan’s probable hypothesis when he wrote the post) and fighting your way as a working migrant. The former is realtively easy –unless you have a family to feed. I’d agree with Nathan: go for it! The latter one is very, very difficult. And although I haven’t experiencied here the kind of discrimination that you find in Chile, you will have to fight administrative and governmental hurdles that you will not see in Latin America. It is true that if you have a decent job, you will enjoy a great deal of equality. The problem is that just a handful of migrants will get those jobs. There is a reason why they call it “fortress Europe”. You are wellcome to come as a student (and leave afterwards); you are wellcome to stay if you are a manager, and you are wellcome if you are a computer scientist (or MINT) or a football star. Everybody else will have to endure a long-lasting distrust, accept work that you would never put in your CV, deal with opinionated authorities, who think that they know the world (many of them never left Europe or they speak just their own language. Cf. to Paula’s “inward looking” objection), go to integration course and spent hours, days and weeks dealing with hostile migration authorities. And nobody would think of calling you “Expat”…of course not!… Here, you are a working migrant, even if you are highly qualified. Nathan, your advice is very warmhearted and your diagnosis of Chile is correct, but I still think that if many European would spent some time in Latin America (not as an Expat but with an average working class family), they would realize how privileged they are that a considerbale part of the western world accepted to adopt much of their lifestyle (language, eduaction rankings, culture, economic and political order, etc.) I am quite sure you did not have to approve a spanish course, or a undergo an “integration course” to get your residence in Chile back in 2010. Well, in Germany you have to. But my argument does not invalidate yours. You are still right, and it is probably thanks to culturally-aware and reflexive people like yourself, that this discussion is possible in the first place. In sum, I think your blogpost is a valuable contribution to a debate that has been largely absent so far; including the friendly objections you are getting. And I equally believe, that the advice applies to people from industrialized coutries as well: spend some time in Latin America, not as an expat but as an average citizen. It will further their horizons too. Thanks Natham, all the best..
thanks osvaldo, i read this really interesting article in the guardian about why white people are called expats and non-whites are migrants. link here http://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/mar/13/white-people-expats-immigrants-migration
also, and by way of clarification, i’m in no way saying that chile is not guilty of all the things we accuse it of. i just think that keeping a sense of proportion is important for all countries have their flaws. also as a migrant who has lived in the us, the uk, and currently australia for extended periods of time i feel that there is a real danger in perpetuating unrealistic egalitarian myths about wealthy countries.
i can assure you that the US is full of indian immigrants, almost universally with thick/unintelligible accents that are a complete turn-off for most americans, and these same people are getting rich working white-collar jobs because they’re educated. people who arrive illegally with no plan are a totally different story but their accent doesn’t have much to do with it.
Obviously people who arrive illegally have it harder than an indian immigrant coming from an elite university, but those that are lucky, smart and work hard are doing fairly well. I was recently in LA and house cleaners were making $100 per house per day, cash, and were able to do 3-4 houses per day. That’s fairly good money.
thank you for the assurance.
Just writing, two years too late, to say that I find your comment so well written and thought provoking. Thank you for this intelligent post!
while i can see why your post has seemingly garnered support from chilean expats and foreigners who live/have lived in chile alike it seems to me that you are ignoring the reality of the chilean immigrant abroad. you presume that meritocracy exists in developed countries, both empirical and anecdotal evidence would actually tell you that this is not the case. the jobs that immigrants get in the rich western nations they move to are – almost always – dependent on their their ethnicity and their accent. immigrants with heavy accents are more likely to end up in under-skilled jobs or manual labour, occupations that do not reflect their merit but rather their new nation’s proclivity for diversity.
you are also ignoring that individuals tend to replicate their network patterns, rather than expand them, when they are in new locations. in other words, individuals look for and consolidate new social groups with people who are similar to them in age, class, and other factors. the idea that privileged chileans will in fact establish meaningful relationships with those who do not share their privilege simply because they see that the mexican nanny’s son went to university is fallacy. people with privilege are, at best, simply exposed to tangential events of egalitarianism and, at worst, blind to them altogether. contact theory – or the idea that close proximity and exposure to otherness would lower an individual’s aversion to otherness – developed by allport in the 1950s required at least 5 elements to be in place for it to be successful (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…. walking through a university campus that is full of otherness is not enough to get people thinking about their own deeply entrenched biases.
i also believe you are ignoring the systemic issues at play in a country such as chile. for example, it is easy to think that chileans are staying at home because they are lazy. yet to reduce the many-layered social issues that chile has to a lack of global perspective understanding is to reduce the daily struggles of many who are trying to change the place to a failure of character. yours seems to be an article full of over simplifications and sweeping generalizations that really amount to nothing more than an opinion that while echoed by many is neither new nor innovative. chileans have been leaving chile for decades and the problems you describe remain.
a final note would be to perhaps note that the insularity you speak of is not a phenomenon that happens in chile alone, there are many rich, western, liberal nations that are equally as insular and inward looking. to pinpoint chile for flaws that are common the world over seems, to me, rather unkind.
Solo voy a decir que como emprendedora que ha vivido en USA y Europa me parece una falta de respeto que cualquier persona extranjera nos diga lo que “es mejor para un chileno”.
We don’t go around telling people from other countries how to live or what to do. I agree with your points… But by telling us what is better for us you are just acting like an “upper class person” I would expect an article like this from a “cuico” and if it comes from his experience I would respect it… But in this case I just feel like you are better than us, and that’s why you think you can tell us what to do.
Another classic “don’t tell us what to do, you’re a foreigner” post. So basically you agree, but don’t like that I’m a foreigner saying it? Why does that offend you? I really don’t understand why people have this attitude at all. Just to be clear, I never said I was better than you. There’s things that I don’t like about Chile after having lived here for 5+ years, there’s things that I do, they’re just not in this post.
Are only Chilean opinions valid about Chile? Should Chileans never have an opinion about the US? About George W. Bush and Donald Trump? About gun crime in the US? About our foreign policy? Should Chileans never have an opinion about Argentina? About Peru? About Bolivia? If someone’s uninformed and just spouting off, that’s one thing, but I find it fairly ridiculous, especially since I’ve lived here for 5+ years.
I’d be happy to have an informed foreigner giving advice to the US. That’s how we improve. You’re basically saying that only the 17m chileans can have valid opinions about what goes in in Chile. It doesn’t make much sense to me.
And to be clear, I’m not telling you what to do. I’m telling you what I think you should do.
Yes, in our culture giving an advice to someone that didn’t ask for it is offensive. You should know that after 5 years living here. And yes again, I would never feel like I can tell an Argentinian, Peruvian or American what’s better for them, even living there. It’s a matter of respect. Again, our cultures are different Nathan. You are writing this to yourself and to people that will agree with you, because the truth is that “elite” and “not elite” people won’t change their minds and go living abroad after reading your post, therefore… What’s the point? Or you truly believe that someone will?
With all due respect Daniela, the “offensive” thing is ridiculous to me. As a chilean I cannot but reject the implicit pride and lack of self national critique meant through your words. Every single person I know of that has travelled and lived outside Chile for a year or more HAS changed his mind an questioned many cultural biases and setups. One of our worst cultural flaws is to be so proud and to disacknowledge value of humility, which is why we avoid a self-critique spirit. It may also have to do with a certain inferiority complex that avoids self critique as much as possible.
I truly believe some people will change, I have friends who have left and changed and I’ve also met plenty of people who lived abroad and came back changed. So yes, that’s the point.
And can you really say that you’ve never shared an opinion about anything outside of yourself? Using your logic, you should never talk about anything besides yourself in Chile.
Perdona Daniela pero, como persona nacida y criada en Chile decidí trabajar, ahorrar dinero y salir a estudiar afuera porque me aburrí de que en Chile la gente me diera “consejos” que nunca pedí sobre qué hacer con mi vida. Ejemplos: ser moreno es mal visto pero mi palidez y resistencia a querer broncearme también (porque “parezco enferma”), que trate de no usar tacos porque mi altura intimidaría a los hombres, no mostrar que soy educada porque eso también los asusta, que por qué no tengo empleada doméstica y mi casa no brilla como un espejo porque ser mala dueña de casa=mala mujer, la Iglesia y tomando decisiones sobre mi salud reproductiva, gente en la fila del banco que me pregunta a pito de nada mi estado civil y que a mi edad ya debería estar casada y con hijos, hombres en la calle dándome su opinión sobre mi ropa por medio de piropos y en mi trabajo que debería vestirme como alguien de mi profesión por un tema de estatus (o sea ropa de señora mayor) ¡Por favor! En qué rincón de Chile donde la gente no da consejo si no lo pides has estado viviendo que me encantaría vivir allí.
Sé que ningún lugar es perfecto pero llevo viviendo un año medio en Holanda y, a pesar de que he pasado por hartas vicisitudes (la vida no es fácil en ninguna parte) y extraño mucho a mi familia, amigos y paisajes chilenos, he visto que es posible ser respetada por lo que eres y he escuchado opiniones muy interesantes sobre mi país, buenas y malas, que me han ayudado a tener una mejor visión de la sociedad chilena.
Daniela, te encontraria razon o, mas bien, hace unos años hubiera estado muy de acuerdo contigo sino sintiera que lo que dice este loco es lo mismo que he estado pensando desde que vivo y viajo por el extranjero. De hecho, si alguien me pide consejos acerca de irse de viaje o de ir a probar suerte al exterior, probablemente le daria las mismas razones que aparecen en este articulo. Y siento que parte del problema como Chilenos es victimizarnos al punto de rechazar cualquier criticismo que venga de “los imperialistas” solo porque viene de “un weon que se cree superior”…me parece que eso en lugar de demostrar autoestima demuestra todo lo contrario: un sentimiento de inferioridad que se oculta haciendose “el soberano”.
Lo digo no desde el “primer mundo”, sino desde tierras Asiáticas.
Saludos.
Gracias Cela. Comprendo que le encuentres razón. Yo vivo en Chile y he vivido fuera también, y sí, le encuentro razón, pero honestamente como emprendedora me molesta que nuestra meta sea ser como USA o Europa, o Japón o Australia. Todos tenemos realidades diferentes y hay que respetarlas. Ojalá todos pudiesen viajar. Pienso que es lo mas enriquecedor, pero sí, yo estoy aburrida de que se nos presione por ser mejor, o mas parecidos a y no se trata de amor propio… Tu sabes mejor que nadie lo que te costó llegar a Asia, es igual de dificil para un gringo? Obvio que no, entonces con qué moral vienen a aconsejarnos? O nos van a hacer ellos las cosas más faciles?
Por cierto Cela, tu le escribirías un artículo a la gente del país donde estas para decirles qué hacer para mejorar? Honestamente, como chilenos nos han enseñado a agradecer a quienes nos reciben y dar consejos o sugerencias cuando alguien las pide.
Hola Daniela, comparto tu espíritu (qué chucha tiene que venir el vecino a decirte cómo ser mejor persona), pero estás apuntando mal los dardos.
Que un vecino hable a uno debería importarle cero (y esa es la defensa del autor, la cual comparto). El problema es cuando alguien se toma a pecho lo que dijo el vecino, siendo que no tiene puta idea de lo que sucede en tu casa. O sea, lo que te quiero decir es que no tiene nada de malo que alguien opine, lo que es malo es que le demos tanta importancia. Siempre he peleado con que somos campeones para tomar opiniones extranjeras, sobre todo de países tipo USA, Europa o cualquier país “avanzado”. Mucha gente ha llegado a este artículo por lo mismo: “miren lo que dice un gringo sobre Chile”. Si lo mismo lo hubiera dicho un Chileno común y silvestre, nadie haría tanta revuelta. Entonces, el problema no es del gringuito que lo escribió, sino de todos los weones que porque lo dice un extranjero lo toman como algo muy importante de leer, que debe ser cierto o que debamos considerar.
Esto que te comento (miren lo que dice un gringo de Chile, miren Finlandia como modelo de no sé qué, miren transantiago que es copia de no sé dónde, etc) y lo que comenta el artículo (clasismo, racismo, etc) vienen de los orígenes de latinoamérica, y aún con mayor fuerza en Chile. Ahora, como el vecino vino a dar su opinión, claramente no sabe cuál es el origen de lo que expone y, por lo mismo, salir del país para mejorar esto es una real burrada que hay ignorar. Como contra ejemplo, para matar la burbuja no es necesario ir tan lejos: pueden conocer gente de Pudahuel, la Legua, Las Condes, Providencia y Santiago Centro, etc.
¡Saludos!
Pero calmados. Aca el no dice lo que debemos hacer o no, el señala por que es bueno que alguien se vaya a viajar o vivir afuera. Si yo o cualquier chileno escribe lo mismo que el, ¿entonces si es aceptado? Es ridiculo.
Yo una vez converse con la familia australiana con la que estuve viviendo, de todas las cosas que me parecian mal de Australia y ellos apreciaron mi honestidad y me encontraron razon en la mayoria de los puntos. See what i mean?
Yo no estoy hablando del artículo, estoy hablando de que Daniela encuentra una falta de respeto que alguien extranjero te diga qué hacer, y mi analogía es que nos debería dar lo mismo lo que diga el vecino. En mi opinión, el problema es que mucha gente va a considerar esto como cierto por el “bias” a las cosas extranjeras que tenemos. Y sí, de que es ridículo, sí lo es, pero es así.
Ahora, de que esto es una real burrada, te lo resumo en esto:
1. el título dice “lo mejor que un chileno puede hacer es irse”.
2. el texto en resumen dice que te darías cuenta que vives en una burbuja.
Y mi opinión es que para reventar la burbuja no es necesario irse a otro país. Tampoco estoy de acuerdo en el resumen que das tú, que es bueno viajar porque así te das cuenta de la burbuja. Cuando viajas y vives afuera ganas mucho más que “salir de la burbuja”.
Hola Aldrin, gracias por comentar. No creo que irse es la única manera de romper la burbuja, pero creo que es lo mas rápido. Hay algunas personas que pueden hacerlo sin salir, y los que si pueden, increíble. Pero yo creo que es mas facil si uno sale.
Es divertido ver como un gringo tiene a tantos chilenos respondiendo en ingles en su blog… respecto a que alguien extranjero de diga qué hacer, en Chile pasa todos los días y cada rato, solo que no nos damos cuenta 😉
No estoy diciendo que la meta de chile debería ser estados unidos, ni europa. Chile tiene muchas cosas buenas y mejores que estados unidos/europa, pero también debería tomar algunas de las cosas buenas de otros países para mejorar lo que podrían aca. Eso es mi consejo no mas.
the downside if a chilean and if an american never leaves the country is absolutely the same. americans are very very selfcentered as a country, why would it be less of a downside if they didn’t ever realize that? althow I agree with you, the way you expose your opinions are really subjective, not a very solid ground, but I’ll keep it in mind even so
Nathan i Really want you to travel to Guatemala (mi origin Country) and make a article like this one of you experience you see and live in this country because we have a really talented People that are losing motivate to success thanks to the government and love quality Jobs in the papernews….
It’s on my travel list! Thanks for commenting.
Hi Nathan, I’m a Chilena living in the US for three years. I have lived in Chicago and I currenlty live in Taos, NM. I’ve been traveling for 5 years and I am what you call non- upper class from Maipú.
There’s scientific proof on how it is much healthier to have different generations living under the same roof rather than having an individualistic society, like the US. So, I do not see much problem on staying with our parents until “we’re old”.
I have a degree in Japanese, and have been to Japan two times. I also travel around Asia. There are some Asian cultures that do not necessarily say what they really want and since it is a cultural thing, I respect it.
The passive aggressive behavior you refer to is mostly in Santiago, which in my Santiagina view, is the result of a sick life style. As someone mentioned here, it’s unlikely you will see something like that in other places of my country.
There is classim and I do not like it. It is a reality but that has to do with family upbringing and nothing with traveling or living abroad. In Chile, I have really good cuico friends, who have never lived abroad.
I have traveled around other Southamerican countries and just because we speak the same language does not mean that we share the same values. For example, Mexicans are much more Catholic than we are, Bolivia has a completely indigenous background, and I think that to live in a Latin-American country can give as much perspective as living in the US or even more.
However, I do see the nice things of living here in the US. For example, people in the US are mostly nice, say hello, thank you, and if someone bumps into you on the street, that person may apologize. (Something that almost never happens in Santiago).
That having been said, I have the impression that the vast majority of people here do not travel. Or live abroad. Nor do they care to hear about those who do. Nevertheless, I have met many people from the UK, Japan and the US that would rather live abroad than to live in their native countries. For example, one of them is my husband, who is a gringo and has traveled to 40 different countries. And we’re currently relocating abroad. Why do you think that is?
I think the US is a good country just like Chile. It has a lot of awesome things that I know I’ll miss when I leave just like I miss things from Chile now.
But perhaps if the Bush’s, Obama, Trump, the Clinton’s, Rumsfeld, Kissinger, Nixon (1973, Chile), etc, had lived abroad working with the upper and non upper classes your country would have much more respect from the rest of the world.
Traveling is ok, but to get the full benefit, a gringo should live and work out of Santiago, ideally for at least a year. 🙂
My entire point is not that one place is better than another, its that many chileans believe their way is the only way. Some things are better in Chile, others in the US, others in Japan etc. I’d happily live outside santiago, it’s on my list!
I’m a chilean living in the US and I agree with you 100%.
I went to public school in Chile, my last name was Castro and I have dark skin. It was very difficult to find a good job for me in my country after I was done with veterinarian school, even tho I had excellent grades.
I moved with my american husband to the US 5 years ago and here I got an excellent job with the government, got promoted and at work people values me for the quality of my job.
About the feeling prettier part… I agree 100% with you as well 😉
Hi Nelly,
Thanks for commenting and congrats on finding success!
Great article! I am from the US, but I lived in Chile for 25 years and think that your are absolutely on the spot. If more Chileans would live somewhere in the developed world for a year (ideally, more than a year) and then return, it might help Chilean society move in a healthy direction.
Hi Daniella, thanks for commenting!
Sorry, but I don’t agree. I think no matter where you go or live you’ll find similar problems. It is not a “Chilean” problem, but classism and other forms of discrimination can be found all over the world. Discrimination against others is rampant in Australia, the U.S and Europe too. Just for example the way black Americans and Mexicans are treated in the U.S , or Indian people in Australia without mentioning the aborigines.
Marcelo, I agree, there’s clearly discrimination everywhere, but the main difference is that if you’re successful as a minority in the US/Europe you can move up, whereas in Chile, you’ll never have the right last name or the marks of the upperclass and won’t be accepted.
Traveling is a very humbling experience. Especially for a gringito.
But you would not know that.
Because you are a tourist.
Your mind is a cubical, breh.
How am I a tourist? I’ve lived and worked here 5 years.
Como esta su Español, brehh?
Mi español esta bien, trabajo todo el día en español. Intenta de nuevo.
Then why are you just now speaking it?
I just now read the first third of your article. Have you ever been to Asia, or Australia?
stop trolling and if you want to read the entire article do it, then we can chat.
You do not even know your own culture’s history. You may want to begin there.
As a Chilean, I agree with the main point, but I find somehow intelectually dishonest to suggest that dark skinned people are necessarily better received in Europe or the USA, parts of the world with a history of state sponsored racism which we couldnt even dream to have.
Maybe in the major cities, with some people, just like in Santiago.
But I wouldnt recommend a moreno fellow Chilean to look for fraternal love in Harrison, Arkansas, or in a small town in Bavaria.
Wes, I think that there’s racism and classim everywhere and its clearly worse in places that you mentioned. But you don’t have to live in Arkansas or Bavaria if you’re in the the US or Europe. And the main difference is that if you do become successful, you more or less get into the club, nobody will care what your last name is, or even where you’re from. Whereas you could be incredibly successful in Chile and you’re never getting into the club.
Good post, Nathan. I can tell by your polite answers that you are trying to be supportive. I once experienced a fascinating situation, which turned out to be an unexpected sociological experiment.
For the 2010 earthquake, the local chilean community in Switzerland decided to “do something”, so we gathered around a table at a local cafe. Everyone was giving cool ideas and trying to help. After a while, I noticed everyone was feeling a bit uncomfortable, without having a particular reason. I realised then that all segments of our society were represented there, and that this very meeting would have been simply impossible in Chile. This malaise was very subtle, but we went ahead anyways. The event was a big success. We managed to raise quite a bit of money selling empanadas, wine, singing and so on… However, after it all finished, some of them became “suspicious”, only because one of the organisers had taken two days to wire the money. They even tried to organise a meeting to accuse him, which I formally opposed. Long story short : this is a deep division in our society, where each side mistrusts the other. I am optimistic it will change, but it will take several generations of improved public education.
Hi Rodolfo,
Thanks for the great comment and the story. I agree with your prescription, although I’d throw in a heavy dose of immigration and grants/scholarships to study/live abroad.
Haha… Chile’s quite extensive government grants for overseas studies are almost entirely taken up by people from wealthier families who don’t need them, but consider receiving such scholarships indications of their born-to-rule merit.
Could be, I’ve never looked at it, but it wouldn’t surprise me. But you could easily do some form of need based scholarships/grants in addition to what already exists.
This sounds perfect if you live in the US… here the politicians would simply assing those to friends and family…
Yep, most of them even belong to the government… or to one of the governing political parties…
Scandals don’t make people resign like in say… Germany…
Yo vivo en Minnesota y me encanta ver la mezcla de gente que se produce. Es una mezcla que jamas se produciria en Chile. Afortunadamente, no nos ha pasado lo que les paso a uds. despues del evento. Saludos!
I am glad to hear that. 🙂 I think it is indeed possible, when we all become permeable to a new culture. It also, helps to have experienced the same (sometimes odd) situations, especially at the beginning. We all become more punctual, start caring more about recycling and discover that forgetting something somewhere doesn’t mean it is lost for ever…
By the way, my story did not end badly at all! The money was duly transfered to the foundation Un Techo para Chile
The organiser was brilliant in motivating a bunch of people, getting a place for free, a tent and so on. At the end, everyone felt he or she had made a difference.
That is really funny.
At my kids school, some mother was the “tesorera” (treasure keeper) for the money stored for the trip at the end of the year… Apparently she had some dire straits and … She run away with the funds…
It doesn’t even bother me, I understand those things happen in this narrow strecht of land, but what I’m curious of the ending of the story: the mother never showed up again, never promised to return the money, never gave an explanation, never actually returned the money… but she left the daughter in the same school… so she used the money and the daughter to pay for the consequences… Way to go!!!!
Why doesn’t this surprise me?
We had a lot of similar cases in previous years. Sometimes you would pay for something and then they would tell you the receipt was to be given later… only to never be given… I even usually paid the year in full to get a 5% discount… and sometimes they asked me to pay the full year again at the end of the year… and if I didn’t keep the receipt, I had to pay again…
Come on, Chile is fine, the beaches with cold water and all, the snow resorts being incredibly expensive and all… it is only the chileans who make this country ugly… and the prices??? Are we living in Switzerland? WTF?
And don’t tell me that the upper class is much better… you mean those guys who are being prosecuted for doing ilegal stuff and charging people more than they should?
Or the politicians?
Do you know anyone who is not buggler or a hooker?
If the bible was written these days it would not talk about the babiloneans being the bad guys… but the chileans…
Chile so expensive, university, food, etc as if we lived in developed country. I have lived in Spain, US and China, but I like my country where I came back a few years ago, in spite of being full of classism, separation, etc. Prejudices, suspiciousness,
What I am not aware of is that “most” of collegue girls become whores. I dont think is realistiv say most (more than 50%?). If was not the case in my univ years although college wa expensive
Totally agree with you, I moved to Turkey (with my husband and my children 11 and 8 years old) for a year, and although it was a courageous decision I think the opportunities are invaluable for them. They see the world beyond the mountains that protect us abd to know different customs, religion and culture. I also very much agree with the class system you describe and that even here, so far, I played live with some of the chileans I met here (most older people) made me feel at home, lol.
Hi Carolina, thanks for commenting! Turkey is an awesome choice, I’ve never been but would love to go!
Fact is, the Chilean political and economical system is a complete scam for most of the population. Seriously, you can see a deliberated transfer of public funds to private hands in pretty much every key sector of the economy; 19% sales tax (same as in Germany but with, pretty much, NO welfare benefits) and possibly the most unfair tax policy that I know of; the pension, health and education models are made to create money for big investors and there’s no way they would be implemented in any other country with a relatively sane political system; an absurd underestimation for work that traduces itself in really low wages for the big majority of the population; an accentuated culture of distrust/competition with your neighbor/classmate/coworker; a state of glorification of material wealth and stupidity; etc. I could go on forever.
I believe these are some of the reasons for most of the things you list in your article. They’ve created a country where most people struggle to afford their basic needs but at the same time they defend the model because they’ve been spoon fed with propaganda about this “miracle” that the country supposedly is.
No wonder many people feel they don’t owe anything to Chile (okay, to banks and so, but they are private), but to their parents’ effort or so.
You are one of the many problems Chile has now, Nathan. Instead of running away from our beloved country of Chile, we can easily solve the problems we have here. This article itself is classist and shows that you let that be a major part of your life. It doesn’t matter if you consider yourself “gringo”, that aspect of your life shouldn’t make you feel better then Chileans with the same privilege. All I see here is a rant against Chile and the way society works in the country. Mainly Santiago because yet again your generalizing. The lower class here has a huge resentment towards the upper class that is so disgusting that they themselves have been brought up in. The only option for the lower class is to either leave Chile, which is NOT a solution or change the way they live and stop worrying/depending on how the other classes live. If my neighbor or friend etc gets something new, lives in a new area etc Who really cares? If you let such meaningless things affect you, then you sure have a closed mind and are not bringing nothing new into the table. I hope you open your eyes and stop putting the classism of Chile on a pedestal and live your life happily.
Nibaldo, I don’t feel better or worse than anyone with privilege. I also don’t think people should run away, they should leave and then if they want to come back, they can. I’m just curious, what do you think the root cause of the resentment is? Why does it exist? It may be meaningless to you, but it’s not to most people who are affected by it. I probably shouldn’t even be responding to you seriously, after what you’ve written on Facebook, that you “like classism”.
I think you really need to realize how much privilege you have compared to the rest of the country if you really “enjoy classism”.
While nobody will die from not making a friend, people are negatively affected when they can’t get a job because they don’t have the right last name, don’t have “buena presencia” that many jobs require in chile, can’t talk to or date a certain portion of the country.
I really don´t have the time to debate or the urge to explain myself further about the topic of classism. My dream here in Chile is to make this country more welcoming for tourists and a better place for chileans. Have a great day 🙂
What an asshole!
Hello Nathan, congratulations on this article. I have just shared it on Facebook and am hoping it helps at least one of my contacts to help him/her realise in a better way what the bubble concept in Chile means.
However, I would like to add just a thing or two to your analysis.
I don’t think every single Chilean would benefit in the way you assumed in your discussion. Although it might apply to a huge number, I am afraid that the biggest impact of moving abroad basically mainly (if not only) applies to middle-high and middle-low classes in Chile. The reason why I do believe this is bacause, I’ve seen how many upper class aristocrats (I am sure there are many exceptions out there) who have lived abroad, have come back the same as they left, if not worse than in terms of classism and narrow mindness. This happens because day a day they move in a different sphere as we (the rest) normally do, and whenever they move, they already have pre-setted who will they meet (aristocratic peers) and where they will go. So, no real impact (or barely no impact at all) on social awareness in this group.
In the other hand the extreme poor in Chile will either not have the income to afford such a quest or the motivation to leave as living in Chile is “not that bad” in the end…
Fortunately, we are talking about ~10% of Chile as a whole. But anyways I wanted to point it out.
As a Chilean, married to a German and currently living in Berlin, I can say muticulturalism changed my life. I was raised in a middle-high class family of European expats, received private education in one of Chile’s Top 10 Schools. But it was not after I started travelling and living abroad, that my way of thinking shifted making me realise that being caucassian and well educated, were indeed two invaluable assets that opened many doors that remain closed for many other chileans nowadays.
Coming to Europe was one of the best decisions I have made in my life. Chile is a country to come back, so I will eventually, and I am sure that my experience will help undirectly to some of my closest circle to try and live abroad for a while.
Cheers!
Hi Kike, thanks for commenting. I agree with you, not everyone will take advantage of their time abroad, many upper class people will come back with an even higher opinion of chile because life is so good. But leaving is one of the best ways to potentially expose yourself to other viewpoints. Some will take advantage of the opportunity, others will not.
100% spot on.
Thanks for commenting.
Dear Nathan:
With reference to your blogs comments about chilean citizens I writing to express myself in a few points, to help you understand the chilean situation:
-Growth and money is bad distributed here in chile, but better than cuba, argentina, colombia.. etc-
-Not only are chilean people poorly paid, but they are also working 10 or even 12 hours per day, without any social protection or health insurance.
-we have a bad goverment administration
– The underlying origins of this conflict date back to before her time in office, but Bachelet’s government made the situation significantly worse.
-In addition, coordination at field level is sometimes hampered by lack of coordination and policy coherence between different levels of goverment in the country.
– I know is all up to us, and I understand that visions of education cannot remain fixed and immutable but must build on cultural diversity, respond to changes and generate new initiatives. There´s gerat schools and colleges. In spite of all this, education in Chile is, most of the time, inmutable.
– chilean people is nice, fighters, strong and hard working, but there are some very serious stress problems here in santiago. becaouse all the point of view expressed above.
One could just as well question the value of everything or DO SOMETHING to change what you see. If you want to help, you´re welcome 😉
Hi Claudia, I more or less agree with you, although I think inequality is even greater in Chile than you think: http://www.businessinsider.com/ranked-income-inequality-around-the-world-2015-7
Dear Mr. Lustig, with the due respect, I couldn´t help notice the liberal magic words such a privilege which reminds me a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWXZ-whusxY
You remind me the white student so much, good intended but severely misguided.
Please watch that video it will challenge the dogmas taught by the elitist intellectuals of the left.
have a nice day.
P.S. by the champagne socialists that run my country (Chile), wouldn even think about sending their own kids to share the same classroom with poorer kids (all their kids are in private schools) but they have no problem in doing social engineneering with other families kids.
Fuck Chile, socialists and libtards!
Hahah, I think this is the first time I’ve ever been called a socialist or a “libtard”! I think we all must recognize the privilege we have, but not feel ashamed about it. It’s not someones fault how they were born, but it doesn’t make it less true that it was easier for me to be successful coming from a good public school with well educated parents than a lower class chilean or poor person in the US with a poor education. I don’t think people should feel ashamed and they should take advantage of what you were born with, but it doesn’t mean it wasn’t easier for some rather than others (me included). People who don’t recognize it end up acting like dicks most of the time.
Very accurate, I recommend to add a Spanish version so a larger number of Chileans can ready read it.
Hi Hugo, I’m going to translate it today/tomorrow! Thanks for commenting.
I couldn’t agree more. As a Chilean, I remember when I lived and worked
as a teacher in Wisconsin and Minnesota and I had to explain all the
crap we grew up with, being classicist is second skin to all Chileans
among lots of other things like to look down Mapuches (the most numerous
native American group), I include myself. Great article. I am craving
for working as a teacher any of the destinations mentioned above.Thanks.
Hi Luis,
Thanks for commenting! I hope you enjoyed my home state of wisconsin and got to sample some of our beer and cheese while you where there!
Have you ever met a British or an upper-class German?? we should go and marry their daughters… They would be so happy ????. I agree with many of your ideas, it is fun to read it, if you would do stand up comedy here in Chile (with a funnier approach obviously) with this arguments I’m 100% positive that it would be a major success.
However I disagree with something, I think it is far more important to send US people abroad than Chileans. Since Chile is not involved in wars and foreing affairs trying to control other countries and etc. We don’t have companies worldwide and we are only 17.000.000 mill. +o-. It is a must for the US to educate their own people about foreing countries, to send them abroad to see how the world looks like before to try to conquer it lol. Since Chileans can only harm our own society we are not that important. Don’t get confused I agree with what you wrote but I think this is a very important issue.
I’ve met plenty and sure, the top elite probably wouldn’t like it. But if you took a well educated non-elite chilean and dropped him in the US or Europe, nobody would have any idea if they’re elite or not back home. Same as in the US if you don’t grow up elite, but are smart enough, lucky enough and work hard enough to get into a good university or get a good job, the vast majority won’t have a problem.
Your second point is interesting and I agree more people from the US should travel abroad. My point is that US people are more exposed to people from different backgrounds and nationalities because of immigration, tourism, going to university etc, so many people get some form of exposure in the states that chileans won’t if they don’t leave.
El racismo se cura viajando y el fascismo leyendo (Unamuno). If you are not an educated person and you live in a footloose town and they send you to a war in Irak, for sure you would have an Abu Ghraib. Still, we have Guantanamo who is supported by a a nation against all the international agreements.
True, my critics goes directly to the US, because I consider that nation far more dangerous than any other, plus if you go to redneck land it is the same or worst than any other third world country. However I do believe that this is different in other places where I have been. I know that in NYC ppl are far more relaxed and open or in Cali, but as David Bowie said… I’m afraid of americans, not you obviously, but the ones who didn’t have the same choices that you had. And my last quote belongs to one of my favorite american writers… “Whenever you feel like criticizing any one, just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had” I’m not saying it because of you, I say it because it is a good way to see the rest of the world.
I’m very critic about Chile and I think some of yours comments are remarkable, I usually never post and never get involved in arguments or exchange of ideas but I do appreciate a good one,
Cheers Nathan 😉
My problem with your post is that it feel so self-righteous… considering how Trump has raised among the republican candidates, How can you write a post about classism, elitism and maybe racism without looking at the US society? I live in Europe and while it is far more multicultural than any country in America (meaning the whole continent), the very same problems can be found everywhere. Within the UK classism and elitism are serious problems, in France racism is a very huge issue. I am sorry, but your post seems to me be part of the same “white saviour” discourse, who aim to highlight our problems, but forgetting how your own culture has similar or more troublesome issues.
I’ve written plenty of posts about the US’s problems and we clearly have them, trump being one of the biggest right now. But it doesn’t make sense to add paragraphs of intros to this post when talking about chile. I don’t think the white savior label is apt here…my advice is to go abroad and make decisions for yourself after taking in new experiences.
As I pointed out above, the problem is the tone of the post, which seems to be very self-righteous and, somehow, moralistic. Mostly when you consider how hard is for the afro-american and latino immigrants to improve their social status within the US. Not alone to talk about the problem of the police brutality against them. And while you deny to no having any “white saviour” tone, the problem is when you claim:
“Chileans should leave Chile to see what it’s like to live in a society where service is excellent, people trust each other and are generally nice to each other in day-to-day interactions. They can see that being passive aggressive isn’t the route to success. That asking for things directly is probably the best way to get what they want. That saying no to things they don’t want is much easier than saying yes to everything when they really mean no.”
Which claims the question, Which society? The US? European Nations? Asia? Africa? I think you are thinking about your own society and therefore making a claim of superiority which is not real, considering again, the big social issues that are hidden in the US.
It’s not easy for minorities to improve their social status in the US, but its easier than in Chile. And when they do, they’re mostly accepted. Of course there’s problems in the US, but the fact that somebody smart like Obama with white mother and a kenyan father who worked really hard and got lucky can attend a top notch university, get a great job and end up as president.
Re: the quoted part, I’m not saying that the US/Europe are perfect, far from it. But empirically, there’s more trust in those countries, customer service is better and people are more direct and there’s less distance between social classes/people in power.
trust – http://ourworldindata.org/data/culture-values-and-society/trust/
customer service – http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/magazine/where-to-get-the-worlds-best-service.html?_r=0
Chile ranks better than the US on many indexes, I’m just not talking about them in this post.
Hi Nate. I found your article to be interesting and accurate to some degree. I have two points.
1. While Chileans definitely discriminate based on skin color, there are many elites who are moreno/as just as there are low income people who are “rusio/as”. As a foreigner, it is really hard for me to wrap my head around because the overwhelming majoriy of Chileans have darker features, regardless of income. I don’t think you are helping the discrimination situation by continuing to perpetuate the myth. Cuicos simply straighten their hair and wear designer clothes.
2. I think you have missed a very important reason for Chileans leaving. MACHISMO. Chilean women would benefit greatly from traveling abroad and realizing that men can cook and clean for themselves and that they are not responsible for doing so. They could live with less pirpos and blatant sexism. They could see themselves as more than just mothers. Meanwhile, Chilean men can learn to cook and clean for themselves and respect women as equals. They see that men are also responsible for their children’s caretaking, among other things. For both Chilean women and men, being abroad might mean they get to expand their minds on LGBT issues. While sexism exists to some degree everywhere, it is very strong here (as it is in most Latin American countries).
DISCLAIMER: I am also a gringa, so by no means an expert.
Hi Marissa thanks for commenting!
I really liked your 2nd point, but I didn’t feel like I could write about it well since my only real experience is from the mens side in Chile. Thanks for bringing it up!
Esto lo escribe un resentido social, peruano, colombiano o boliviano. La realidad es que a ningún Chileno le interesa irse al extranjero y menos a algún país de latinoamerica. En Chile se vive bastante mejor que en muchos países.
jajaja, ahora si sale el tipico discurso! tengo que ser peruano, colombiano o boliviano para pensar asi! parece que no leíste nada del post, dado que soy de estados unidos. te invito a salir de tu burbuja para ver que cualquier critica en otros países no provoca “ahh es un resentido de mierda!”
en verdad, chile tiene buen calidad de vida, y tienes razón que se vive mejor que en muchos piases. pero eso no significa que chile no se puede mejorar. muy penca tu actitud.
Mas penca y estúpida tu actitud, para empezar te cuento ignorante, que yo conozco un par de países vecinos y son miserables y también he estado en Estados Unidos y no me gustaría por nada vivir en ese país donde hay tiroteos permanentemente y la gente debe andar armandose, con violencia por todos lados, de modo que tu comentario sobre Chile es muy estúpido, si bien hay problemas estos son normales y te aseguro que el 99% de los chilenos estamos felices en Chile así que mejor guárdate tu estúpido comentario tarado. En Chile además de tener una naturaleza hermosa tenemos muy buena calidad de vida y nuestra economía y sociedad anda perfecta y por eso a ningún Chileno o a la mayoría no nos interesa en lo más mínimo vivir en otro países. El título que usaste en tu texto es por lo menos un título imbécil. Y debes ser bien tontito como para decir lo que a firmaste.
jajaja, claramente ninguno chileno quiere irse! 99% son muy felices! me encantaría vivir dentro de tu burbuja. Ya listo, tienes razón, chile es paraíso, el resto esta muy mal! si no tienes argumento, vas directo a insultos personales, muy bien hecho!
Gracias, en todo caso no veo el insulto. En realidad me parece estúpido poner el título que usaste. Que te parece si yo escribiese “lo mejor que puede hacer un estado unidense es vivir fuera de Estados unidos”,…. Decretarse algo muy estúpido respecto de Chile. Mas encima no vives en Chile. Tu puedes dar la opinión que quieras de Chile, pero afirmar que lo mejor es irse de Chile es una estupides que no resiste mayor análisis y cuando te digo que a casi todos los chilenos no nos interesa vivir en otro lado es sencillamente la verdad y obviamente hay excepciones.
En fin me voy a disfrutar de la montaña y mañana iré a la playa, la próxima semana iré a un viaje fantástico al desierto y luego a sur a la antártica…. Por cierto todo dentro de mi hermoso País… Chile. Adiós.
En verdad, creo que no leíste nada. Vivo en chile hace 5 años, estoy en Santiago en este minuto. Me parece muy bien si escribes un post “lo mejor que puede hacer un estado unidense es vivir fuera de Estados unidos”. En verdad estoy de acuerdo con eso también, es lo mejor que puede hacer un gringo. Hazlo y lo publico acá si esta bueno.
PD – no veas insultos? tarado? imbecil? debes ser muy tontito?
si esos no son insultos en tu vida…
Cristián, no ves el insulto porque eres de la clase de chileno acostumbrado a insultar y eso es normal para tí, y en eso es lo que se ha convertido hoy nuestro país; porque los sujetos como Ud. abundan y son la clase con poder ahora. Generalmente menos preparados en muchos aspectos pero con buenos “pitutos”, porque en Chile ahora todo se mueve de ese modo. Ya pasaron los días gloriosos del Chile de antaño en el que uno se sentía verdaderamente orgulloso de su patria, hoy es muy difícil mantener ese sentimiento cuando en cada esquina se aparece un pelafustán insultando a diestra y siniestra porque carece de auténtico espíritu cívico por no haber apendido en casa el valor de la cordialidad y los buenos tratos. Los modales del chileno promedio han bajado considerablemente y Ud. es la viva prueba de ello. Es una lástima que en tan pocos años haya bajado tanto la calidad personal que alguna vez fuímos, y me incluyo porque esta corriente me obliga a tratar del mismo modo a mis congéneres en contra de mi voluntad: lo cierto es que eres un idiota ._. y además tienes mala ortografía, sólo un patético estúpido se las da de “carambolas” cuando sabe que lo que está diciendo es mentira y solo busca aparentar… en Chile la clase verdaderamente trabajadora ya está cansada de sujetos como tu que no hacen más que hablar. Dime qué chileno de clase media puede darse el lujo de conocer la Antártica cuando sólo para hospedarte en torres del paine necesitas ser millonario. Es verdad que Chile es hermoso, tiene paisajes extraordinarios y una idiosincracia especial en muchos rincones, pero no todo el mundo es mochilero y hay muchísimas familias de clase media y más pobres que no tienen la suerte de conocer el propio país “en familia” porque las condiciones ya no son las que eran en los años 80s o 90s. Mira como se levantan las masas de gentes clamando justicia y dime de nuevo que el 99% de los chilenos está muy contento con lo que tiene y no dejarían lo que el país, como gobierno, les ofrece, por una mejor calidad de vida, por una mejor educación para el sistema, algo más que les permitiera vivir más dignamente, y no hablamos de cosas materiales ni tecnología, que de eso ya todo el mundo tiene: hablamos de un sistema que promueva la calidad de vida sana sin dejar de lado el respeto por la propiedad privada, sin dejar de lado el respeto mutuo que nos merecemos como coterráneos de un país que nos ha “acogido” desde la infancia. Y aunque no hubiera sido así, hay un tema más profundo que tiene que ver con el amor a la patria: algo que no se gana con mentiras, sino reconociendo los propios errores y debilidades que sufre el pueblo para no volver a caer. Chile está mal en este minuto y hay que dejar de pintar todo color de rosa cuando la realidad apunta a otra cosa. Yo estoy de acuerdo en promover todo lo posible mi país hacia los extranjeros y el Mundo cuando el promedio de las cosas funciona, pero ahora no funciona casi nada porque quieren dar vuelta el país, el gobierno pretende cambiar muchas cosas en muy poco tiempo sin enfocarse en nada y eso está llevando al desorden civil lo cual es una irresponsabilidad por parte del Estado. Estoy seguro que no soy una excepción al opinar esto.
Que manera de hablar weas, no tienes nada más que hacer tarado.? Andate a la chucha weon tonto.
Este no es el espejo de tu baño, “niño millennium”, es la pantalla de tu computador.
Puta que tienes tiempo libre para escribir tantas weas juntas, anda a trabajar vago.
Anda a cagar pobre weon tontito
If you can afford to leave and work overseas for some time, do so! If working overseas is not as practical as it could be, travelling overseas as a tourist comes a distant second in terms of educative potential, but is a lot of fun. As someone who has worked in 3 different workplace cultures and 5 different countries, the experience one gains is invaluable. If working outside of Chile is not an option for whatever reason, there are ways within the country to diversify ones experience. If you are from Santiago, go to University in “las regiones”, or if you are from “Las Regiones” go to university in Santiago. Study languages and work in the international sector. If you lack $$ but are young and smart, choose a study path which allows for relatively easy international transfers such as nursing or science.
Great comment, thanks for posting.
Nathan, you are so right. So on spot. And you could have go on and on with a lot more. I know the US is not perfect, but it is been such a huge improvement for the moment I stepped out from the plane. I think I could also go on and on telling you how it is, but you know perfectly what I mean. Thanks for your post.
Hi Alicia, thanks for commenting. You’re right, there’s clearly things the US should improve (getting rid of Donald Trump might be #1!) and I’m glad you’re enjoying the US!
This is exactly what I’ve been saying to my close friends and family after years of traveling and working abroad. You totally nailed it Nathan, spot on! I’m sharing this 🙂
Hi Andres, thanks for commenting!
I agree travelling is key for anyone’s personal growth and unfortunately many people can’t afford it or can’t understand its value.
I think every country in the world has major issues in terms of classism that should be delt with. Has anyone else also felt you could replace “Chile” for your home country and this article would still make sense? 😉
In Santiago specifically, it seems to me the “where do you live?” thing is a mark of the local classism (some people also mention the “where did you go to school?” thing). There is an invisible line that geographically separates the rich and the poor and one’s comuna defines his/her identity. From an outsider’s perspective, it all seems very silly. I live at the boundary between the comunas Providencia and Centro and I’m often challenged by a Chilean to “prove” my buillding is actually in Providencia and not Centro (as you can see, Providencia has a higher status). It took me a while to understand why this happened whereas I was just informing the comuna that was written on my mail.
In Sydney (Australia), for example, it was more about “what do you do for a living?”. In Brazil, I’d say is more about the latter than the former.
As for the final statement, that an American would be less impacted than a Chilean if he never left his country, I think it is just too broad to say. Having lived in a small US city in a low populated US state, I can say travelling could do wonders for those people. Considering that the average American has much more opportunities in life (work, money, respect elsewhere, etc) than an average Chilean, one could say travelling could be much more fruitful for them to live a happier life and to potentially positively impact the world.
Hi Fabio, thanks for commenting. I think to some extent replacing Chile and replacing the local issues would work, but I think the local issues that I pointed out in Chile are true. As I’ve said in other comments, just because I didn’t include the cons of other places like the US/Europe doesn’t mean they don’t exist. They just don’t fit in this article.
Dear Nathan,
as a chilean, i don´t like die US society as well: The wide gap between rich and poor and the violence and poberty as a consequence, racism and war-(crimes). But with your (superficial) description of the chilean society you ´re absolutely right. Nevertheless iam not so pessimistic for the future. As a chilean president said once ” I have faith in Chile in its destiny”.It´s up to me, its up to us.
Hi Darwing, I’m not saying all of US culture is better than Chile’s. Not at all. There’s clearly some things that are better about Chilean culture than the US/Europe. Just like there’s clearly things that are better about US/European culture, which I listed here. Just because I didn’t list chile’s pros here doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Well, you kind of said that the US is better than Chile with your “Note”
And yes, just because you didn’t list Chile’s pros doesn’t mean you don’t think our society has actually good things too, but it really sounded like you don’t…
I have to say it, I really didn’t like your article. I don’t know why exactly, but I felt offended the whole time I read it. It’s like you look down on us, and you feel so superior (not personally, but because you come from a “developed” country) that you can actually tell us what’s best for us. But that’s all you can give us? Go live abroad? That suggestion is A) not affordable for everyone and B) not the solution to the real problems our society has.
You described the “elite” and “not elite” class very well. Black and white. What about all the people in between? All the shades of the middle class. Or all the shades of the upper class really, because if you make 1 million a month you are rich! I guess I’m part of your “elite” class, because I went to a private school, I live in “el barrio alto” (no tan alto eso sí, La Reina no más que es bien rasca for most the “elite” class you described) and I’ll move out of my parents house at the age of 25. But you make me sound awfully shallow. My boyfriend is definitely not part of your elite class, her mom is a nanny, so I guess that puts him in the “non elite” class. And right know we are at the same place, graduating from Med School. The “elite” girl and the “non elite” boy actually met, and they respect, value and love each other. And that “miracle” didn’t happen because we lived abroad, it happen because of education, both our parents’ and ours. And knowing the world out there is just a part of it. But yes, maybe the fact tha his father lived in the US for a couple of years was determinant in some way in my boyfriend’s life, I have to give you that. But the essencial thing that this country needs is education.
Also, like other people have mentioned, that kind of segregation is only seen in Santiago. In “regiones” things are much different. And I think that’s something that was determinant for me, both my parents are from Viña.
And there is one more thing I want to point you out. Living with your parents it’s easy, yes. But I don’t think we do it as a society just because we are lazy. Family is a big value here, and I think you failed to mention that. My parents are super sad I’m leaving the house, and I’m 25 years old. And I’m grateful for this 25 years I got to spend with them and my sister. And my friends that had to move to study here in Santiago when they were 18 years old (my boyfriend included), they miss their families, not only “the easy life”. And of course, living with your parents it’s not always a choice… Living with your parents, granparents, one uncle, your 3 siblings, your 16 yo sister’s baby and his boyfriend it’s not always a choice, and it’s definitely not easy. And that’s the reality of many chilean families, where moving out because “you have to be independent” it’s not a priority, it’s actually turning your back to your family in need.
PS: maybe I cheated, because I did live abroad for 5 months in the US when I was 16, as an exchange student. And I really agree with you that knowing the world is part of education. But you can’t just simplify it like that, specially in a country were travelling abroad, and to the countries you mentioned, is not possible for everyone.
I would like to comment about this issue from my personal experience. I’m a mid accommodated class, I live in La Reina, and I’ve studied in a school in la dehesa when I was young, then went to a public school, studied in a public university in Estacion Central. I’ve conducted research between schools in Vitacura and Estacion Central. I have worked on both wealthy places and poor locations.
I don’t have brown tan skin, but i have black hair and dark eyes. I’m over 6 ft tall, and speak educated, but not with cocky aristocratic accent. And personally I have felt discrimination in every place I have worked or studied. Not only rich people discriminate the poor, but the poor discriminate de rich, and the midclass is highly competitive, if they see you have something that could help you escalade, they discriminate you as well. Even the basic form of engaging and bonding is though humiliation: “el huebeo”, it’s called. It consist about making jokes of something that could be embarrassing for you, and if you are ok with it and laugh about yourself, you will easily fit in groups.
The only way to know people is to be referenced by someone else, also to get a job. It is difficult to get somewhere here, everything is so expensive, and I think that the reason is because people that have it rough sell expensive, so they can benefit from those who do well, and the hell with those who not, because the economics of that model basically works. So if you don’t have enough money, better sell something for those who have it.
Discrimination, excessive competition, incredibly close social groups. That’s Chile.
Hi Julio,
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I think there’s such a lack of real communication between the classes that there’s massive misconceptions on both sides, which leads to experiences like you had at work.
I agree. Poor communication leads to a common reaction of over-interpretation. I strongly believe that this is the cause of prejudice in behavior. Over interpret instead of asking, even instead of believing the credit of the outer version l, the outer truth. In the end, Chilean people are a clear example of a critical lack of spirituality, observance and faith. At the same time a lack of leadership, and humility.
Thnxs 4 your reply.
Todos deberiamos viajar tanto como nos sea posible.
Gracias por comentar!
Hi Nathan, I recently married a man from MN. He went to the University of Wisonsin and we met while he was doing a semester in Chile. I moved to MN last year and, as an upper-class Chilean, I’ve experienced everything you’ve described, although I had not been able to put it into words until I saw your article. Thank you!
Hi Camila, congrats on marrying a fellow UW alumni, haha! Thanks for commenting and I’m glad you’re enjoying Minnesota.
I agree with you about how the things will go for non-upper class of Chilean society when we leave the country, that’s really true.
But, when most of upper-class Chilean society members go outside Chile, they go to places (even in Europe or USA) where the bubble remains, because they have a lot of resources (and i’m not talking just about money). Even studying (being study one of the activities that sends more chileans to others corners of the world), they go to private and/or most-expensive universities in the world, at least they have chance to get in one of the most prestigious universities (Oxford, Harvard, Cambridge, MIT). Also, most of them are specialist in economy-based careers, chosing countries as USA or England as destiny, where its strongly present the same reality than Chile. I think this happens because they already had contacts to arrive in a better situation than others. This will impact in the breaking-bubble perception you want they learn. They will not change them bubble, at least they will get minor changes that will mean nothing in their comeback to our country.
I think the best thing a upper-class Chilean society members could do is to leave Chile without using their circle influences, but most of them won’t do that because they won’t want to lose them status. It’s really hard mix upper-class Chilean people with other classes, even outside Chile. That’s a huge problem.
Niko, thanks for commenting. I agree, some do, but others don’t. And they come back with another perspective. Even going to an elite university will likely be useful because you’ll be exposed to people from all over the world. Even getting to know other privileged people in other cultures should help build bridges. From what I’ve seen, upper class chileans outside of chile don’t have problems meeting other non chileans, just non elite chileans they might encounter. I could be wrong though.
definetely not all of upper-class chileans do that, but i think most of them do it. I’m agree about elite universities about exposing with different realitys, as MIT because is not economy based, same as Cambridge or Harvard (despite forming groups based on their believings or way of acting, they have to interact), but a private elitist university or school don’t because reunites people from the different bubbles in the world (London School of Economics, just to say one). The university stuff it was an example of course.
About meeting other people from others countries, in most of chilean people there’s a cultural aspect about meeting people of others countries, because it means a new level of status in the social climbing career that many persons follow in order to succeed (thing i don’t agree at all), most will present as “i have a friend from X place” making enphasis in the nationality rather other aspect, maybe to say that you was in that place or to apparent you have more world knowledge. Well, all chileans were trained/educated like that after 1973, so it took part of our culture, and now many people (we) refuse that.
But imagine yourself, many of upper-class chileans have the resources (as i said before not only money) to travel and when they do it, they make it in a different way that a non upper-class person do. In vacations, they won’t use service that others use, as i don’t know, airbnb, couchsurfing, or cheaper hostal/hotel searchers etc. unless they wanna experience something different (very rare case). Same with flights. Also, the same when moving out for a time, they rent a well located flat or something, forget about co-renting of leaving in places more cheaper but with less comodities. I understand your point, but i think is very unlikely to happen in upper-class chileans because they have several ways to skip that process in order to reach an ambiance closer to their daily stuff. And we, we have a unique way, which is designed by the host country culture.
BTW, i agree with your thoughts, but in the upper-class case, is not that easier. Good Job.
As a chilean that was born in the “non-elite” class as you call it, but was able to climb the ladder a bit (despite living in Chile), I completely agree with your points. I would go even further: most of the people living in Santiago have no idea how’s life for most of the chilean people. I believe most of the people in Santiago don’t even realize most of Chile makes less than $600.000.
Yes, there is a big “class” problem in the country but I also find that some of the blame is also with the people from the bottom class: many if not most have the worst attitude: “everything the rich people have is from stealing or abusing, and I deserve more and better — and since it’s “morally” right, I shouldn’t work harder to get it, someone should just give it to me”.
I’ve seen many from the bottom classes to wake up and just move forward and up, maybe not to the top 5% but surely way better than where they started by just not expecting things to fall on their laps by complaining.
In comparison with the average chilean, that expects to get paid more while doing the same job, or expecting to get a raise and THEN do better instead of the other way around.
I had the fortune to know different realities by landing a summer job as a flight attendant in Lan Chile in 97. After that experience (outside of the bubble) I was able to do things I wouldn’t have dreamed before.
My only secret was the attitude change I was able to get from being able to see and compare so many different places and people: If I want something I work for it. If I’m not being recognized I don’t stay and just complain about it, I move on where I can be more valuable.
Long story short, in April I was offered a position in the US by a major IT company. It’s a dream come true, but it took me many years and lots of effort.
So yes, I completely agree with you.
Greetings from Colorado Springs, CO.
Hi Marcelo, thanks for commenting and congrats on your success! I really think one of the biggest barriers is just a lack on understanding between the classes from a lack of real interaction. The wealthy have little idea that most people live on 600k or less, and if they know the stat, have no idea what it really means to live with that level of income. The lower class only sees news stories of the upper class getting away with crimes, raising prices and doing things like price fixing and doesn’t get to know that the vast majority of the upper class are actually decent people, just like the lower class. That’s the problem as I see it.
The problem in Chile falls in a prehistoric educational system. That’s the main cause of segregation, ignorance, short “sightness” and eventually a dysfunctional society as you propose, but it happens both ways. I am fortunate to have friends and acquaintances all over the spectrum and I am sure more than one may have felt sad by your post, or not represented at all. While your encouragement to leave Chile is nice, as I would probably encourage everyone in their own skin to experiencing a different culture, society, values, etc., comes with an obvious problem. Lets take as an example to visit the US: It is now possible to have a visa for short term visiting purposes, “no questions asked”, but the reality is that it will generally be used for vacation purposes; To leave Chile and live in the US for a year is a different story and will most likely be attach to a comfortable budget to afford such adventure and quite the credible reason, as you won’t be able to work (unless you land a work program like in New Zealand or Australia) during that year. At this stage, the problems you point out are still there preventing someone less advantageous to live the dream. So the only way at this point of someone to have that vertical mobility is through education, that on a broken system leaves less opportunities for that to happen. So tackling a society based on the result of a bigger problem, it is irresponsible without informing the cause.
About classism, racism and most “isms”, it happens everywhere and in Chile is just one more country on the list “copying” developed countries’ behavior. So any relation to reality, it’s not a mere coincidence. You mentioned wealth distribution: Chile is the 5th country in Latin America with best wealth distribution after Uruguay, Mexico and Peru and Dominican Republic measured between the 20% richest and the 20% poorest and 7th on the equivalent 10% out of 20 countries.
To say that a ball is rounded will have many people agreeing with you, but it is a matter of perspective.
Thanks for commenting. I think you’re right about education. It’s really the only way.
Spot on, Nathan! Chile is an island in many ways even from an ecological or epidemiological point or view (which is not bad) but especially regarding culture (which is way worse than what people even realise!)
Sadly most people will never be able to travel abroad because of money. But for the ones in the upper class certainly would be desirable that they go somewhere like Australia, where multiculturalism is the norm and yet they will realise that they really aren’t as fair skinned nor ‘blonde’ as they thought they were.
Cheers!
Books have been written about the shock a lot of ‘progressive’ (centrist patrician) Chileans got when they went into exile in the 1970s and realised for the first time that they weren’t white. I think you’d be hard pressed to find old money Chileans who think like that anymore; there are too many jokes about it.
I don’t think many people are thinking just skin color, but I think many are shocked when they leave, some for the good, some for the bad.
Thanks for commenting. I think the travel part is changing, at least it was until the peso got really weak. With Lan, Sky and other airlines starting to compete for longer routes, I think more people are traveling abroad rather than staying in Chile.
I have to agree with everything you said but this sounds more like a ‘big city’ experience. Where you in Santiago the whole time?
Thanks for commenting. I’ve lived in Santiago the entire time, but have traveled and worked both in the south and the north. I agree its more prevalent in Santiago, but I still think it applies to most of Chile.
Dear Nathan, thank you for posting such an honest post that many wanted to say but didn’t say it because of being annoyed by people saying “si no te gusta, porque no te vas”.
I admire how polite you are with ALL of the comments.
I also write a blog about similar things and some people react badly to realities that hurt. When this happens, I tend to show them this video of a Colombian-Japanese speaker called Kenji Yokoi who talks about this. As he says “desconocer una verdad te hace esclavo de una mentira” and that is what blocks the progress of this country.
Cheers from a chilean-japanese born in Costa Rica.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63q9AuvIvXw
Hi Akira,
Thanks for posting, very interesting video, hadn’t seen it before, will have to check it out. I love the “desconocer una verdad te hace esclavo de una mentira” quote. It’s exactly right.
Please!!!! I ‘m Chilean, brown, proud of my last name (León) and I dont need a foreinger to tell me how to feel better un my own country. I think your article is limited in many ways and it shows that you didnt live outside Santiago.
It sounds a foreigner own paternalism that sees us as an underdeveloped country. I have traveled around Europe and see what i have felt racism as i have ever lived un my country.
No need to tell me that foreigner, i have to do as Chilean to improve. What were you thinking!!!! Es una completa falta de respeto y falta de cultura de tu parte, señor extranjero. Más respeto
Hi Lorena, that’s great you’re proud, you should be. The rest of your comment fits into a group of comments “you’re a foreigner, anything you say is disrespectful.” I find that attitude very odd. I’m not telling you what you need to do, just what I think would be helpful. I suppose you never say anything about any other countries?
Not that way!!!! Would not have the audacity to say something like that. You have an attitude of absolute superiorityto us.
As I’ve said in many comments, Chile has plenty of things that are better than the US/Europe, they’re just not mentioned in this post, as it doesn’t make sense to include them. I don’t think its audacious at all to give my opinion and I don’t think I’m better than you. Just that there are certainly things that Chile and Chileans can do to make itself better, just like the US can.
I don’t like your way to trying to be ” better” perhaps you do not understand … After all, you do not have the luck to be CHILENO. Hay mucho que mejorar, pero no desde el punto de vista de un extranjero xp!!!
No hay problema si no te gusta los consejos, pero es demasiado extraño para mi ver “Hay mucho que mejorar, pero no desde el punto de vista de un extranjero xp!!!” Entiendo que estas orgullosa de chile, pero por que un extranjero no puede opinar? Tiene cero sentido. But shoot the messenger all you want! I don’t mind.
Yo estaría feliz leer algo asi de un extranjero en estados unidos. Asi aprendo.
Bien por ti!!! Yo no podría decirte a ti como ser mejor en tu propio país. Pero si lo pones así .. Bueno, te digo que tener esa actitud de superioridad y dar ese tipo d consejos, sin entender nuestra historia, es a lo menos de superioridad ante otros paises. Dejen de sentir que están por sobre el resto.
Say something like: Note: “I think the best thing someone from the US can do is to leave for a few years too, but if a US citizen doesn’t leave, the downside is much less than if a Chilean never leaves” oseaaaaa!!!
Really liked reading this, i believe it´s true, i lived in Utah for 11 years and moved back to Chile, and can clearly see the diffence between people. I highly dislike it. When will people learn to unite and not separate themselves from others just because of money.
Hi Anita,
Thanks for commenting, Utah is beautiful, I hope you enjoyed it!
Hi Nathan, thank you for your post, i’m chilean and lived abroad for many years, coming and going. Your comments totally nailed it, and it is totally hilarious to see so many of my countryman/woman react so bad against you and the article, like not even realizing they are doing the very exact thing you are describing, and even giving away so many new examples of our in many ways awful idiosyncrasy. (here is where people will say that i should leave Chile then and never come back.. haha). The classicism here has no limits, and i’m afraid to say that I would add one thing you missed, many of the chileans that go to live abroad end up with the same-class chileans they find there, and end up coming back exactly the same..
if you come again, it would be a pleasure to meet. Thanks for trying to open some minds..
Hi Raimundo, thanks for commenting, I pretty much agree. I’m still in Chile, so maybe we’ll end up meeting!
You tell me! I got kicked of high school for having friends with a different economical situation.
Carlos, thanks for commenting. Now that’s a story I’d love to hear!
What really calls my attention, is that you came to Chile as entrepreneur, with an innovative purposes. However, along the way, you discovered something even more important; why Chile (and StartUp Chile) cannot innovate. Our way of thinking is obsolete, proper of a ~century ago. That’s worth more than a successfully developed company; it’s eye-opening for many people. Thanks!
I think a substantial part of your description of Chile is
accurate, even if you sometimes have to engage in generalizations to illustrate
a point. Nonetheless, I believe you are also talking from your own bubble when
prescribing what others should do in order to fully take stock of the rampant
prejudice in their home country. On occasions, you sound like the typical
well-intentioned, upper middle class American who travels abroad to confirm his
prejudices and see how good he has it in the U.S. of A. Yes, there is more
social mobility and better job opportunities in the U.S., but that’s primarily
because there’s more money and it’s a larger country. You seem to think
classism in America is negligible and that’s probably because very few people
even discuss it. In your own remarks about “rural” areas you are engaging in
caricature. America has an entire entertainment industry dedicated to making
fun of poor people and depicting them as animals: it’s called reality TV.
Likewise, if in the U.S. you tell someone you live in or you come from places
like Appalachia, you will automatically have to answer to a number of
pejorative assumptions about yourself. God forbid if you have a Southern drawl.
And that’s just talking about poor Whites. If you’re a poor person of color,
you are doubly –or more likely triply– fucked.
America wages an active war against its poor and that’s not
just from the dictatorial levels of incarceration, but because of how the deck
is financially stacked against the poor (unregulated predatory lending, arbitrary
banking fees that exclusively affect the poor, etc.) Just read this recent
Economist article: http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21663262-why-low-income-americans-often-have-pay-more-its-expensive-be-poor
Additionally, compared to Chile, Americans seem to worship
money and wealth like no other people I’ve ever seen. (BTW, I was born in the
U.S., raised and educated in Chile, and I have been living in the U.S. for the
past ten years.) Nonsensical ideas like “pulling yourself from your own
bootstraps” and support for people like Trump who divide the world into winners
and losers is rampant. Since we’re generalizing, I’d say the majority of
Chileans has a healthy disdain for spoiled rich fucks. In the U.S., it’s almost
unheard of to criticize someone for being rich and greedy except when a handful
of politicians rail against greed in very vague terms and without naming names.
Worship of money in the U.S. is
downright tacky and I don’t believe it’s as widespread in Chile.
Also, Chileans don’t worship work as much as Americans and
don’t think that asking for a few more rights at the workplace is akin to
Communism. Most Americans, on the other hand, seem to think anyone who wants to
organize workers or join a union is a filthy Commie (the notion that unions are
mostly for lazy workers or that they outlived their usefulness is rampant.)
Since you’re encouraging Chileans to work abroad, also remind women that they
shouldn’t get pregnant since that’s a major “no-no” in this country when you’re
employed. You don’t get paid maternity leave and everyone expects you to be
back at work as soon as possible. My Chilean friends still have a hard time
believing that when I tell them the U.S. is not even close to entering the
early 20th century in that department.
Has it ever occurred to you that some people might not leave
their homes because they don’t want to and their families are not encouraging
them to? Has it ever occurred to you that some people might not feel that
attracted to the prospect of living in a society where asking for minimal
workers’ rights is frowned upon and people are far more willing to suck shit at
their jobs? I’ve worked $8.50/hr jobs and jobs where I made $160K a year. In
both, I was asked to work unpaid overtime and put on an incredible amount of
extra time in exchange for nothing. It wasn’t the exception at the workplace,
it was the norm. Most of my coworkers were scared to even discuss how they were
being taken advantage of and I’m not talking about low-skill blue collar jobs. The
U.S. Dept. of Labor does very little to stem these abuses except for the
occasional report about wage theft. Chile’s Direccion del Trabajo is at least
more proactive in this respect.
Finally, if you are encouraging people to come and work in
the U.S., you should also warn them that retiring here is a nightmare. The vast
majority of workers won’t get to have a 401(k) and if they have one, it’ll be
likely be underfunded (the average
401k balance in the U.S. is around $91,800 as of Nov. 2015.) Also, studying in
the U.S. is becoming increasingly unaffordable and health care sucks if you are
poor (something as flawed as Chile’s Plan AUGE is utopian in the U.S.)
I also think your
advice will be mostly helpful to working class Chileans. Most upper class Chileans
who travel abroad only mingle with other upper class people at the university
they attend, the school their kids go to and the neighborhood they live in.
They are never exposed to any genuine diversity, let alone the rest of the
country. In other words, they behave like rich Americans and most rich people
everywhere. The percentage of Chileans (and Latin Americans) who live in NYC or
Washington, DC and never venture out of the “nice” areas is probably 99%. I can’t
tell you how many Chileans I’ve met who have no clue about how the U.S.
political system works, or have an inkling of an idea about what happens
outside their bubble. And that’s not just those Chileans who travel with their
nannies (btw, that person who talked about how her family allowed her nanny to
eat at their table…. Aaargh! That’s cuico-speak if I ever heard it.)
HAVING SAID ALL
THIS, I do think your post describes Chilean society pretty well, minus some
generalizations. A society where carrying the last name “Larrain” or “Subercaseaux”
is a mark of distinction is something almost surreal compared to America. All I
wanted to point out is that, even though the U.S. is less discriminatory and
far more socially mobile than Chile, that’s no great feat considering the size
of its economy, and it’s still a long way from the rosy picture you’re
depicting (mostly from failing to mention what I point out above.)
thank you
I don’t disagree with most of what you say, the US clearly has problems to work on. But that’s not the point of this post. I’m also not saying people should leave chile forever. Learning about perspectives by living there will open your mind.
I understand that. My point was that if you don’t tell them what they’re leaving their country for, they will be misled into thinking things will be much easier abroad. Your post makes a good point, but it paints an incomplete picture that undermines it somewhat.
Dear Nathan, don’t be discourage. I came to the US 40 years ago as a political exile. I am originally from Tomé, a small town near Concepción. I understand your point because I experienced many of the things you said but I have to agree also with many of the points raised by Paula and RD. The only way we are going to make Chile a better country – and Chileans for that matter – is not by living Chile but rather by staying and helping to make the economic and educational transformations Chile needs so urgently.
Hector, thanks for commenting. I think Chileans who go abroad and come back will likely do a better job at making the transitions that chile needs. The entire point is that Chileans should leave for awhile and most will come back with a new perspective, ready to help change chile for he better.
Very impressed with your comment RD. I feel your view is more accurate and realistic.
Good post, Nathan, spot on. There is only one big flaw: i think you are writing from a white privilege point of view. I think life is equal or worse on every respects for a lower class african american than for a lower class chilean. and if you are black in the us you can have all the success you want and you will still get scare like hell if the police stops you, or if you happen to forget the keys of your house and try to use the back door, of if by chance your description “matches” the one of someone else who was recently trying to brake into a house nearby. after all “a que colegio fuistes” is not that different from the somehow vague concept of “good school districts”, in the us, where richer communities get much better education than poor ones, and poor child are forbidden to attend “good public schools” that are out of their ghetto districts. Just to put thing in perspective. Otherwise I agree 100% and think your article is really great and well written. I’m someone who followed your advice many years ago and haven’t looked back since.
Eloy, thanks for the comment. Although I can’t comment directly on the reality of being a black person in the US, I think a smart, motivated black person who pulls themselves out of poverty will have a better life in the US than and will have a better chance of having a good life than someone with the same intelligence and drive in chile. If you’re able to go to university and get a good job, you’re much more likely to be accepted in the US than you are in Chile. From what I’ve seen obviously.
I don’t think going to a “bad public school” in the US has the same stigma as not going to a “good” school does in Chile. Although the quality of education might be similar at a bad chilean school and a bad us school, if you are able to get out and be successful, nobody in the US will ask you what high school you went to. And if they find out that you came from poverty or a hard background, they’ll likely give you credit for it, whereas in chile, people might even look down on you and you can’t really escape your last name or where you were born.
Me encantaria saber cuantos de todos los chilenos de clase alta que han vivido en el extranjero son capaces al volver a Chile, vuelven a vivir lejos de sus zona de confort, poblar lejos de sus redes sociales y familiares, ese es el reto que yo veo. Al poblar lejos me refiero a no vivir en zonas populares o el barrio de moda. Al leer este articulo solo puede escribir que no hay falta a la realidad o verdad, asi somos los Chilenos, nos hace falta salir al mundo y vivir nuevas experiencias, una frase nos identifica “Nos falta calle”.
Nathan Don’t waste your time trying to make understand your point of view to non-open mind people, In my humble point of view, Chileans don’t accept constructive criticism,I know that because I use to be like that 12 years ago. If you said something which makes us feel uncomfortable We just attack back, like the people here bringing the worst side from the country you are from (US). For instance,if you were from India they will say something stupid about the caste system.
In summary, a Chilean does not leave the room until they get you back as we don’t take constructive criticism at all!. The best thing ever happen to me was leaving chile for good as makes me feel in peace with my self because i don’t have put up with people who don’t listened or take feedback as a constructive way to improve your self and overall makes a more peaceful, mature and emphatic country.
I am very happy that the some one like you have written a piece reality about Chile. Chile is not gonna fully grow until the people focus in solution rather than the problem.
My regards to everyone from Australasia.
Hi Ed, thanks for the comment, I figure it’s worth responding to see what happens. I don’t usually see many people responding directly and politely to criticism, so we’ll see what happens. Enjoy Australia!
La
primera mitad de la columan se resume en “Existen distintas formas de
racismo, y viviendo en el extrangero puedes conocerlas”. Y el resto es
básicamente “Es bueno que la gente acomodada deje de mirarse el obligo
constantemente”.
Honestamente me parece
triste que su propuesta para ambos situaciones sea pasar dos años en el
extranjero: Cualquier persona (especialmente los “acomodados” como dice
ahí mismo) puede abrir los ojos a la realidad social del país. No hace
falta tomarse un año sabático o pagar por un año de intercambio para
hacerlo.
De hecho me atrevería a decir que el mismo
autor no ha sido capáz de asimilar la completamente realidades
socioeconómicas distintas a la propia cuando dice ingenuamente “Both
upper class Chileans and non upper class Chileans should leave Chile”
como si la clase media Chilena dispusiera de los recursos económicos
suficientes (y para que decir el manejo de un idioma).
Mi contra-propuesta: “The Best Thing Everyone Can Do is to Leave His Comfort Zone”.
As a stranger living in Chile (with a Chilean who spent a few years abroad…) I couldn’t agree more with your article. I love the kindness of Chilean people, but I can’t get used to hear every day things like “tiene un buen apellido” or other classist appreciations of that kind. Like you said, most of the time it’s totally unconscious and every part of the population, from the poorest to the richest, reproduces this classist pattern at the same time as they criticize it. The ones who spent time abroad (the younger the better) are more conscious of it and more open-minded. The problem is that living abroad doesn’t seem to be really valued as an enriching experience, and by saying that I’m not referring to the fact that, obviously, it is unaffordable for most of the Chileans. I’m referring to the fact that when I meet someone new and say I’m from Europe, they usually don’t understand why I could find interesting to live in a country less-developed that mine and how I could CHOOSE to live so far from my family. Things that nobody ever asked me in my country…
Hi Isa, thanks for commenting! I appreciate your perspective.
I agree with the general point you are trying to make: my world was cracked open ever since I landed in Santiago, 11 years ago on a 18th of September at 8 am local time. I found myself in a deserted city and a funky taxi-driver who smelled of wine and BBQ. Of course, las Fiestas Patrias were fully up and running. A gigantic culture-shock. Of course in the beginning this is a very scary and uncomfortable “thing”, being abroad, a tremendous wake-up call being outside of your comfort zone, but people experience tremendous personal growth when they are facing vulnerability. Those moments shape who you are as a person by helping you discover your capabilities and what you are made of. Stressful situations expose character, and more often than not, help to build it too. For this reason alone I would recommend anyone to travel alone for a while or stay at least a year abroad, independently if you are from Chile, Europe or the USA, or the problems that your native country is currently facing or your social-demographic background if you are given the opportunity. I am grateful to have gone through such a process and am still very happily living in Chile after all these years despite its flaws.
The only thing that is not clear to me from reading your post, is if you are trying to tackle Chile’s classist system or if you just heavily exemplified the benefits of having an abroad experience from a Chileans perspective? What happens, say, if every Chilean has had an abroad experience? Good post!
Wybe, thanks for sharing your experience, very interesting. I’d love to see chile’s classist system change and I think the fastest way is for people to go abroad and see it’s not like this most other places. If every chilean goes abroad, chile would be a massively different, and I’d say much better, country.
I lost my time reading some comments about this post, and have concluded that our reading skills as country are poor.
I would love to help you to translate this text to Spanish for free, just to share it with my monolingual friends. Just write me in fb.
Best regards
Jaime
Hi Jaime, thanks for offering to help, Bio Bio translated it and I copied a link here:
http://nathanlustig.wpengine.com/2015/11/26/lo-mejor-que-puede-hacer-un-chileno-es-irse-de-chile/
I have to say that I didn’t enjoy this article, mostly because it doesn’t say anything new and because it is really bias. I do agree with the main idea that living abroad is an excellent way to be exposed to different environments, culture and ideas, however, this is something that everyone should do, not only people from Chile. Chileans do not live in a special bubble, every country is a bubble. I have been and live in different countries and people are not always really open minded. Depends on the country and the city. Of course, if you compare western European people with Southamericans or Asians, you will see some difference but only if you compare people from major cities. If you really want to make a point, it should be more useful if you don’t talk only from your experience. Use hard facts! Do you have any hard data to support all your statements? Is it Chile than different than China or Irak or Ukraine? By the way, I am not defending Chilean society, I know that there is a lot to do to make it better but I just don’t see your point to make it Chilean-exclusive. Nice discussion anyway.
“I just don’t see your point to make it Chilean-exclusive” : Well, it’s probably because he lives in Chile and therefore knows this country better that any other that you named. You’re right when you say that every country is a bubble, but I also think that the chilean bubble is a particularly thick one, for both historical and geographical reasons. And you’re absolutely right when you say that every person in the world should spend some time abroad, because it opens your mind like nothing else.
This is a blog post on my blog. It’s an opinion piece. Not a scholarly article or for the newspaper (although some are picking it up). That’s why there’s not many hard facts.
I do understand that this is just your opinion.
My point of asking you for facts instead of your personal opinion was a way to make this post more objective because when we make public opinions about something we have to be more careful about the statements that we make and definitely more open to receive good and bad comments.
As you might notice your comment has made a lot of noise not because is offensive for Chileans but probably because it is not accurate and it is bias. It doesn’t need to be a scholary article to make it more objective but using some hard data might help to prove your point. How can people be sure that what you are saying is right? What if you had a really bad experience in Chile? or the opposite, what if you say that Chilean society is the best? Facts help us to distinguish between bias and objective opinions.
And again, I am not defending Chilean society, on the contrary, I agree with your main point, that travelling and living in different countries probably make us better people.
Les dejo la versión en español, gracias a la traducción de Bio Bio Chile.
http://nathanlustig.wpengine.com/2015/11/26/lo-mejor-que-puede-hacer-un-chileno-es-irse-de-chile/
great post, I would go a bit further and say Chile is a state of mind you have to shed; I shared your post in fb and most of my (upperclass) friends in chile were somewhat offended. Living in the 21st century and looking into the future, you have to get rid of so many childish attitudes, which los mamones cuarentones in santiago fight hard to let go. keep at it, you’re onto something…
Juan, thanks for commenting, love the comment!
I totally agree with you, but I think it’s not only the best thing they could do for themselves, but also the best thing they could do for our country. Come back with a different attitude and therefore, improve the way things are done here….
Michele (couldn’t figure out how to do the accent), you raise a great point. Leaving is best for the country too. Really good point that I should have included in the post. Thanks for pointing it out!
I TOTALLY agree with you Nathan. I’ve never felt comfortable as a privileged person and I always knew there was “something else” out there. As an upper class citizen I was also discriminated when I tried to mix with people from lower classes. I was simply not accepted because I’m blonde, because I speak certain way, because the way I look represents something they dislike. And I understand. So when I chose to leave the bubble, everything made sense. I worked on cruise ships, I worked in NZ’s hostels cleaning kitchens and I did a lot of things that made me realise life was so different (and better) out there and I turned into a long term backpacker (I even have a blog about it: http://lavidanomade.com). After travelling in about 30+ countries, I can say that in the only place I’ve been discriminated is in my hometown, Santiago. Sad but true. Thanks for your article.
Thanks for commenting and sharing your experience. I checked out your blog, it looks like you’re having an awesome time and getting tons of new experiences!
God, Nathan, I don’t know how you have the stomach (and the time!!) to read some of the comments of my fellow Chileans. I was insulted by them and I didn’t even write the article. I agree with you 100%. I believed that way before I left Chile for the US. It was not my country of choice. I had a lot of stereotypes about the gringos that were debunked by…living here. Yes, there are problems, yes, there is racism, yes, there is corruption, and yes, I feel that I have the right to express my opinion about the US because I’ve lived here for 15 years. When I have voiced my opinion, nobody seems to be shocked or told me that “if I don’t like it I should leave” (they told me the same thing when I lived in Chile) or that “they won’t take the opinion of a foreigner”. By this, I’m not implying that one country is better than the other, but Chileans should learn to listen with an open mind and heart. I can say this because it also infuriated me to hear opinions from “foreigners” , when I was still in Chile, as if they were less valid or true.Sometimes, it’s easier to see the facts when you take some distance, or like you, when you are a foreigner. Why can’t we agree to disagree politely?
.As for racism, please don’t get me started. How can we say we are not racist when we are at war with the Mapuche? When we despise the Peruvian or the Colombian immigrant? When we make jokes about the Bolivian people and their indigenous facial features? Really? I won’t even comment on the things they have to say about an unmarried, childless woman in her 40’s. That is my pet peeve. I can’t have a normal discussion without getting agitated that have me stutter out of sheer anger.
The only thing I “kind of” agree with is some of the comments about why
Chileans leave, or not leave, their parents home. I say “kind of”
because I’m not completely sure that that is the reason, although a
salary that allows you to support yourself is indeed a factor. At least
it was my reason for not leaving earlier. I love Chile, I have
wonderful childhood memories, even during dictatorship (tough time to grow up in especially as a teenager), that helped me
grow into the woman I am now. I love being able to go back and kiss
people on the cheek for every hello and goodbye. It sounds funny but I
miss that so much. When I’m there I feel it’s my tribe…until I open my
mouth, of course.
Your description of the middle-upper class Chilean was pretty accurate. You should also get some experience living in the shanty towns in Santiago. That is another Chile.
Thanks for the article. BTW, I’m living in Philly, the city of brotherly love.
Daniela
Hahaha, they all come to my email, so its fairly easy to respond! Thanks for leaving a thoughtful comment!
Nathan, change your name to “Jorge Morales” or something like that, change your passport to a Chilean one, or Soth American, or African, what ever, just let it be a passport from some developing country, and just then come and give us some advices. In my eyes you are very naive.
Nathan, change your name to “Jorge Morales” or something like that, change your passport to a Chilean one, or Latin American, or African, what ever, just let it be a passport from some developing country (or underdeveloped), and just then come and give us some advices. In my eyes you are very naive.
Amelia, that’s a pretty weak comment. It’s clear that I’m very luck to have been born in the US so that I can carry a US passport. By winning the sperm lottery, I’ve had some advantages and I’m lucky to have them. I readily admit that.
But that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Chileans would grow by experiencing new cultures. Do you think that Chileans can’t learn anything from other countries? If you’re only going to listen to Chileans, you’ll only have access to .25% of the world’s population and if only developing countries, about 60%. That attitude doesn’t make much sense to me. What’s naive about advising people to travel to experience different cultures and perspectives?
I have lived in several countries and I know what you mean. But it is not true, as you say, that Chileans will “instantly have more opportunity, “get evaluated for who they are, how smart they are and not their skin color” That is absolutely not true! At least not in northern Europe, where only having a foreing name can be problematic. By the way, Europe is not all the same, it´s no the same Albania and Iceland, Romania and Finland…etc.
I have lived in several countries and I know what you mean. But it is not true, as you say, that Chileans will “instantly have more opportunity, “get evaluated for who they are, how smart they are and not their skin color” That is absolutely not true! At least not in northern Europe, where only having a foreing name can be problematic.
Maybe you are right. I have known several chileans who lived in Sweden and they tell me the same, the best jobs are for Swedes. Since 10% of the people in Sweden are chileans, you can imagine the do all the low paying jobs, like cleaning toilets, taking care of sick or elder people and so on.
It is no wonder, imagine a guy like that, he studies computer engineering since education in free in Sweden, because he wants to get out of the low paying jobs, and he can’t find a job suited for his studies… basically all you can get is low paying jobs and a lot of sex with beautiful women because of your darker skin… I would go to Sweden at any time… since a Swedish low paying job is much better than a high paying job in Chile… and you have to clean toliets… but at the end of the day you do the most beutiful girls on earth… it is like being on heaven.
Guillermo, there are many Chileans in Sweden but NOT so many! 16% of the population is born in other countries (from all over the world). Is true that it´s very usual to find doctors, architects, ingeneers, and so on…working as cleaners and dish washers just because they are not ethnic Swedes. But forget the myth of Swedish women, haha. I live in Sweden and know how much Chilean men like to talk…. Besides, actual Sweden is very different from Sweden many years ago. Today is difficult even to find a cleaning job. Specially if you are a professional.
Yes, I just read that many chileans left Sweden for Chile… Sewdes must be really happy about that, because I read that most Chileans who went to Sewden were lumpen… and that explains whythe number of lumpen in Chile has increased so much as to be considered a disease… or a plague…
Well, maybe I’m mistaken about the beauty of Swedish women… maybe I was too drunk and think all swedish girls are extemely beautiful… but I don’t drink so I doubt it… maybe the Danish are the real beauty… otherwise why go to Denmark every weekend? or that is a myth too?
If you don’t believe me about how Chile is a hell hole, don’t believe me, my mind and my memory maybe are completely corrupted… take it from americans who had lived in Chile:
http://brophyworld.com/not-move-to-santiago-chile/
About going to Sweden, I don’t think I would be happy going into Sweden to just work… living in a country with only 4 hours of sunlight every winter day? You have to be kidding me…
If I grab a swedish girl and the relationship becomes serious… she will have to move with me like all women do in macho style countries… 8-D
I dont know where you heard that most Chilean in Sweden are lumpen, but if it was so, then there would not be so many Chilean politicians in the Swedish parliament,, the communes and municipalties. I´m talking about people who has lived here for 40 years or are born here. You surely are talking about those Chileans who the generals of Pinochet sent here in the 80, that´s a very different thing. It was a strategy to discredit Sweden´s Chilean community. I don´t know why you get so unexplainable offended by my points of view, but I must say that I don´t have anything against you, nor Chileans, nor Chile in general. May be you think I am so ignorant that I don¨t know nothing about Chilean reallity? I don´t like your prejudices. What are you talking about? Sincerely, it makes me laugh….I am a culture anthropologist. Do you really think that I am like a doctor with fobia for the human body? hahaha. Don´t bother to answer if you continue imagining things about me, taking them for granted. Adiós.
Oh, you mean all the terrorist who scaped into Sweden and who later the Swedish government paid them to leave?
That has happened all over the world.
When I was in France the conversation was always over when I said I was chilean, because that is synonym of people who steal.
I read a few months ago a book about one of those terrorist who entered the Swedish parliament. He wrote a book about how the communist government did everything wrong. I read it and while i was compelling, I think he missed the whole point. People in Chile steal and murder because the system is designed to make people compete for jobs, and capitalism is designed to get rid of inneficient companies…
That is the perfect setting for having lumpen in the streets. No developed country does that anymore.
“You surely are talking about those Chileans who the generals of Pinochet sent here in the 80”
Yes, I am.
“that´s a very different thing. It was a strategy to discredit Sweden´s Chilean community.”
I thought the Swedes took pity of the neanderthals… because in the eyes of people living in thesocialist paradise, the lives of people living in Chile must border on the crazy or lunatic.
“I don´t know why you get so unexplainable offended by my points of view,”
I’m sorry if in any way I made you believe I am offended. I am not offended. Why should I be?
I just don’t share your point of view.
I just feel that people in Chile are living in a bubble. The lower class and the upper class, which to me are so idiotic asthe other one, they just talk differently, but in essence they are the same, actually they werethe same just 3 generations ago, just because one granparent was lucky or stole a lot of money, it doesn’t make people that different. That now they are convinced they are so different is just funny… because under the hood they all behave the same… given the opportunity they all become “rotos”… and you know exactly what I mean.
“but I must say that I don´t have anything against you, nor Chileans, nor Chile in general. May be you think I am so ignorant that I don¨t know nothing about Chilean reallity?”
I don’t haveanything against you either. If you live in the US I hope you get a better life over there. I can’t understandwhy you can’t kisspeople on the cheek. I used to do that anyway… sometimes I got rejected though… maybe they thought I was trying to kiss them on the lips… who knows? They don’t say…
Probably you know quite a bit about Chilean reality. But you know what? When people alk about chilean reality they usually mean how people in the lower class live. Everyone in Chile lives like crap… you don’t have to tell me. Do you know why “upper class” chileans always say “I’m privileged”???… Because when they feel bad, they are reminded how lower class people live… Schadenfreude… http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/schadenfreude
It must be really bad when you must be consantly reminded howslave have in order o be able to get on with your life.
“Sincerely, it makes me laugh….I am a culture anthropologist. ”
I’m glad I made you laugh. I like to think about me as the bringer of joy 😉
Don’t come to Chile except for vacation… you will never get a job with a title like that.
” Do you really think that I am like a doctor with fobia for the human body? hahaha.”
I’ve seen some. Ok, female docor inspecting the pubic area… you know how chilean norms dictate they shouldn’t demonstrate any kindof enjoyment… so they go exageratedly in the opposite direction… You are like “hey you are supposed to be a doctor”… but culture seems to be stronger than studies…
Anyway, not all female doctors behave like that.
“Don´t bother to answer if you continue imagining things about me, taking them for granted.”
I was just replying to what you said about Nathan. This whole conversation seems to be like a huge misundertanding, which is typically chilean, by the way.
I had a very good laugh, thanks anyway, you are really funny… and smart… since you studied that…
We just have different points of view, that is all. As typical chileans when we try to explain ourselves it seems we are running a bulldozer over what other people think. That is cultural trait.
When you are lucky to share a lottery ticket with 300 million more people… I don’t know if that is so lucky… Just average…
The real advantage is that the US has smart people working in the government, in the industry, etc. When you work in the US, most of the time, your boss has done your job successfully and understand the issues, you can learn from him, here in Chile people are selected for job roles BECAUSE they have never performed the job, the thinking is that you won’t feel identified with them and will exploit them as much as you can. The relationship of bosses and workers here is antagonic, and since bosses don’t really understand the jobs, they tend to think in colonial terms, they just want to “see” people working… in a country where “looks” are everything, this matches our culture perfectly…
And you know how difficult is to change a culture, even in an office.
A country without any industry, work is seen as something to avoid, and people avoid it as much as they can, while in the US people love to feel themselves useful, to learn and to be compensated fairly. Changing jobs is not seen as a problem, but here in Chile, if you change jobs too much, they don’t like you… and if you stay in a job for 10 years, they find it weird that you stay too long…
Unfortunately the US is going the same path as the latin american economies… I don’t see americans having more job security… and that means people are not willing to learn their stuff on the job, they much rather look for another job, because they know job security is getting shallower every year…
There is a latinatization of the american workplace… Scrum for example is going against industrialization… Most products are built in China these days… So how does americans expect to have jobs in the future?… Only do design and then send the plans to manufacture in China or India?… Do you know that after 10 years of not being able to manufacture anymore, you simply loose the ability to design?
What will you do to compete with all designed and all manufactured products from China?
And the real problem of Chile, IMHO, is that Chile has never produced anything. From day zero the business was extraction of natural resources, and even for that we needed the help of the British and the Americans, because doing anything requires knowledge from people who knows how to do it… every job on earth has at least 10 generations of people learnning and teaching the next generation… Starting from zero is impossible… And lacking the right culture, it is impossible to organize people…
Whenever I’ve been able to organize people, the workers hate it… and upper management hate it… They become totally against of being able to do something because it clashes with the culture. Being a good worker is demeaning to the worker, while it should be the other way around, but the bible says that work is a punishment from god. Having a good project that delivers on time and with the expected quality shows to upper management that you know more than they do… and they hate that with a passion, becuase they want to be able to do that, you shouldn’t…
I’ve even been in job interviews where they tell me that it is not ok that I don’t accept that my successes be attributed to others… you have to be kidding me!!!!… What a bad company I’m applying to that they managed to put this idea into company policy and even to consider talking prospect workers into this… Do you want also to take my money and make me work as a slave?… I bet you would if that was legal…
“Amelia, that’s a pretty weak comment. It’s clear that I’m very luck to have been born in the US so that I can carry a US passport. ”
That is so funny. You say it like it means you carry a diplomátic passport.
nathan hit the nail on the head!!!! LOOOOL I loved the article. Im Chilean American. I lived in the US and went to high school in Santiago for 2 years and visit often. I’m laughing at how well you understand the Chilean culture. I LOVE America, and i LOVE Chile. My two homes… but everything you wrote is very true, and I agree! I also agree everyone in every country should travel abroad. Not just Chileans, not just Americans. Everyone!
you”d love Australia more mate!!
Amelia,
it sounds like you really don’t like other cultures. You want him to become chilean in order to talk about chileans?
So a human cannot talk about elephants? He needs to be an elephant to have an opinion?
That is so chilean of you…
I think you didn´t understand a thing (ni jota!)
Well, I undersand your point of view because everyone in Chile thinks the same “no one has lived what I have lived, therefore no one can talk about it”… and the equivalent “no one who is not chilean can talk about Chile”…
I’m sorry but the first impression is usually the correct one. When you arrive to Chile the airport smells like shit.
Whatever you say, Amelia.
You were pretty xenophobe to him “if you are not chilean, you cannot talk about chile”.
If you are living in the US or Canada (I don’t remember) and have been there 10 years, has someone told you there “you weren’t born here, you cannot talk about this country”…
I seriously doubt it.
haha…I am as Chilean as Bean and Noodle soup….
Ok, i got it. “Porotos con riendas”, you cannot.get more chilean than that.
But take into.consideration that a person living in this narrow land cannot say they have been here for too long. In europe people can claim to.be there for thousands of years, here it is 500 tops, and most even less than 200. Some even less than 50.
The same is true in the US.
You are living for how long in the US? 10 years?
You wouldn’t like someone telling you are not entitled yo have an opinion of the place you are living right now because you just arrived 10 years ago.
But you were complaining the same about the author of this post because he was living here for just 5 years if I remember correctly.
That is unfair and pretty obxonobious on your part. He is entitled to have his opinion even if he has been here for 5 days.
Actually americans seem to like this place, which I really dislike. Maybe they are too polite, but they insist new york is even worse… is that a compliment?
It doesn’t sound like that. It sounds like bew york is a hell hole.
Maybe we need to wait for the next 8 richter earthquake to happen, if he still wants to stay here, he really means it.
maybe he likes it here because he just arrived.
Bravo Daniela 🙂 Un comentario que vale la pena leer.
Bravo, Daniela.
“I love Chil e,”
Who doesn’t love the place he/she was born?
“I have wonderful childhood memories,”
Who doesn’t?
“even during dictatorship (tough time to grow up in especially as a teenager),”
What are talking about?
I remember playing in the street with my firends until midnight and it was not scary or risky.
When I was a teenager, we had parties until 2 am, people would leave… and some girls would stay… you couldn’t pick the girls, they selected the guys they wanted to “continue” the party with… I cannot say if that was the best part of my life or not, but that was a serious contender…
We should have martial law to the end of time…
“that helped me grow into the woman I am now.”
My god, if a had a dollar for every woman I have heard say that, i would be a millionare.
“I love being able to go back and kiss people on the cheek for every hello and goodbye.”
You can kiss people twice in Spain. In France in some places you kiss 3 times and in some others you kiss 4 times. The girls being so beautiful I never get tired of that.
“It sounds funny but I miss that so much. When I’m there I feel it’s my tribe…until I open my mouth, of course.”
Meaning now you have a gringa accent?
I prefer the american way of thinking and the way of doing things every time. People really say what they think. The same is true about Europe. People in latin america never tell the truth. The lie about irrelevant stuff, as if practicing to become professional liers. Also, they never contradict you, like if that was good manners or something like that.
“Your description of the middle-upper class Chilean was pretty accurate. You should also get some experience living in the shanty towns in Santiago. That is another Chile.”
He didn’t mention how [upper class” people only care about appearance. In the 1800’s Chileans used to hide inside their houses, closed doors and windows to simulate they went to europe on vacation. To these days, the “upper” class continues to simulate things they don’t have. I don’t think Nathan got that.
Chileans are really crazy. This is the only latin american country in which people talk about the queen of England as if they received her every weekend during the tea time. I never realized this myself until a cultural orientation book written by americans, for americans, got into my hands.
Shanty towns? Don’t you think he would get robbed? or shot? Or raped? or mudered? or the 4 of them?
If you ever do that, go with a machine gun, and shoot first, ask questions later…
I agree with you most Latin Americans are not direct. That frustrates me a lot from my people. I tend to be a pretty blunt person. Some Latinos like my way, but most find me arrogant, condenscending. But for me, political correctness does not exist in my dictionary, hehehe.
For business and/or way of doing business, I prefer the American way to be honest, but for seeking romance, frienship, family values, lifestyle, food, weather, and romantic relationships, much better the Latin way by a landslide. Gringos are inept in those categories. They do not know how to be good friends and are too cold and insipid for my tastes most of them.
But keep in mind many Americans are also into the political correctness BS, especially about classism, racism, and so on. In that regard, at least us Mexicans we tend to be very straightforward to the point of being cynical/shameless, whilst gringos might say it superficially it is wrong or put some bs phrase or word to sound “politically correct”, but they backstab you behind your back as they tend to have a cunning nature most of them. For me, I could have care less if gringos ended up liking me or not. I have enough friends, and heck, there are much more interesting and cool people out of their country than their are. That is reality of life. I admit most Americans did not like that part of my attitude, but do not care.
Like we Mexicans say “Nadie es monedita de oro para agradarles a todos”. Don’t know if Chileans also use the same phrase or similar.
I am a Mexican of a light olive complexion (many people when I was in USA thought I was Chilean due to my facial features and skin colour as the average Mexican that goes to the USA is brown and with dominant Indigenous features), come from an upper middle class background in Mexico, and I used to live not too far from you, in West Chester, PA to be more precise. I used to live there for 14 years, and honestly, living in the US was the worst years of my life (people in West Chester might be same social class as me and with money, but they are provincial peasants in their way of thinking and mentality as they do tend to be quite narrow minded) and very ignorant about other countries and cultures.
The weather in PA is horrible as it snows terrible in winter and the summers are very hot and humid. Although I was more accepted by gringos because of my lighter skin colour and not stereotypical illegal Mexican immigrant appearance, however, I was still seen as a foreigner, and only superficially was accepted but not too deeply, even though I came from the same social class as them and I even dress much better than them (remember that vast majority of gringos dress horrible by Latin American and European standards). The weather in Mexico is MUCH better, MUCH more things to do in Mexico, and people here dress much better. I dare to say on average, Mexican people (middle class and up) are better looking physically than gringos of the same social class.
I also did not find gringas to be particularly attractive in West Chester or Philadelphia (I prefer much more Mexican or Chilean women of my social class or middle class really, Arab, Japanese, Mediterranean and Russian girls). The gringas in WC do not tend to date foreigners even if they have money, regardless of their skin colour. The vast majority only married with other Americans and dated them. I honestly see much more beautiful, cultured, and kind women in my native Guadalajara or in Santiago (I was there for a semester. Loved the experience)
This, as a result, made my experiences and I admit I am very pessimistic and quite narrow minded about the USA, its culture, and mentality. Also, I admit I am very nationalistic (this does not mean I am chauvinist, as I recognize Mexico’s flaws, and I want my country to improve, as both Chile and Mexico have a lot of potential), and perhaps you as a Chilean might not understandit, but us Mexicans perhaps out of all the Latin Americans, we tend to hate the Americans the most and its culture due to that they are next to us, for historical reasons of the past, as well as current issues. Contrary to what gringos often think about us, regardless of social class, vast majority of Mexicans do not like the US, its culture, mentality, and lifestyle. We either go there temporarily (illegall or legally like in my case) to worka few years, save money, and come back here and take all our savings with us.
After graduating from university, to recover my sanity and not fall into a worse depression, I decided to go back to Mexico. I do not regret my decision. In fact,, I am doing FAR MUCH BETTER in here than when I was in the USA.
The US is good for vacation and sightseeing and getting an advanced education, but for living long term, I do not recommend it AT ALL. I would not want nor have the wish to return there long term. I am staying here as I have certain status here, my family, friends, great weather, good job, nice apartment, good looking girls in my city, great food. 100000000 much better than West Chester or the USA indeed. And I have the right to state this as I used to live there for a very long time, so I know gringos very well and their hypocrite, cunning, two face behaviours (you will not deny it as you know is true. Their political correctness is another way to say they are hypocrites). TBH, even before moving to the US, I never been interested in anything Anglo-Saxon/gringo. Never caught up my attention. It is a long story why I ended up there, and I was a minor at the time, so did not had much options.
Cheers
I am a Mexican of a light olive complexion (many people when I was in USA thought I was Chilean due to my facial features and skin colour as the average Mexican that goes to the USA is brown and with dominant Indigenous features), come from an upper middle class background in Mexico, and I used to live not too far from you, in West Chester, PA to be more precise. I used to live there for 14 years, and honestly, living in the US was the worst years of my life (people in West Chester might be same social class as me and with money, but they are provincial peasants in their way of thinking and mentality as they do tend to be quite narrow minded) and very ignorant about other countries and cultures.
The weather in PA is horrible as it snows terrible in winter and the summers are very hot and humid. Although I was more accepted by gringos because of my lighter skin colour and not stereotypical illegal Mexican immigrant appearance, however, I was still seen as a foreigner, and only superficially was accepted but not too deeply, even though I came from the same social class as them and I even dress much better than them (remember that vast majority of gringos dress horrible by Latin American and European standards). The weather in Mexico is MUCH better, MUCH more things to do in Mexico, and people here dress much better. I dare to say on average, Mexican people (middle class and up) are better looking physically than gringos of the same social class.
I also did not find gringas to be particularly attractive in West Chester or Philadelphia (I prefer much more Mexican or Chilean women of my social class or middle class really, Arab, Japanese, Mediterranean and Russian girls). The gringas in WC do not tend to date foreigners even if they have money, regardless of their skin colour. The vast majority only married with other Americans and dated them. I honestly see much more beautiful, cultured, and kind women in my native Guadalajara or in Santiago (I was there for a semester. Loved the experience)
This, as a result, made my experiences and I admit I am very pessimistic and quite narrow minded about the USA, its culture, and mentality. Also, I admit I am very nationalistic (this does not mean I am chauvinist, as I recognize Mexico’s flaws, and I want my country to improve, as both Chile and Mexico have a lot of potential), and perhaps you as a Chilean might not understandit, but us Mexicans perhaps out of all the Latin Americans, we tend to hate the Americans the most and its culture due to that they are next to us, for historical reasons of the past, as well as current issues. Contrary to what gringos often think about us, regardless of social class, vast majority of Mexicans do not like the US, its culture, mentality, and lifestyle. We either go there temporarily (illegall or legally like in my case) to worka few years, save money, and come back here and take all our savings with us.
After graduating from university, to recover my sanity and not fall into a worse depression, I decided to go back to Mexico. I do not regret my decision. In fact,, I am doing FAR MUCH BETTER in here than when I was in the USA.
The US is good for vacation and sightseeing and getting an advanced education, but for living long term, I do not recommend it AT ALL. I would not want nor have the wish to return there long term. I am staying here as I have certain status here, my family, friends, great weather, good job, nice apartment, good looking girls in my city, great food. 100000000 much better than West Chester or the USA indeed. And I have the right to state this as I used to live there for a very long time, so I know gringos very well and their hypocrite, cunning, two face behaviours (you will not deny it as you know is true. Their political correctness is another way to say they are hypocrites). TBH, even before moving to the US, I never been interested in anything Anglo-Saxon/gringo. Never caught up my attention. It is a long story why I ended up there, and I was a minor at the time, so did not had much options.
Cheers
Loved reading this! I started reading the comments in the morning and got sometime to do it in the evening, but there are so many now!
I agree with everything you said. I’m a teacher and I’ve tried to speak about some of these points with my students. As an English teacher, I was able to teach them about other countries and cultures. However, I knew that at the moment I was in front of future “obreros” and not “gerentes”, which is a sad and cruel reality. In this country, you pay to go to school not only to have a better education, you do it to meet people who will help you get a better lifestyle (or maintain it). That’s the only way to get to the top (If that’s what you want). It doesn’t matter if you’re the best of your class, if you don’t know the right people, it’ll be extremely difficult to be part of that small % of people with privileges.
I’m not saying that money it’s the only important thing in this world, but when you’re living in a place where all the basic services cost more than what you earn in a month, it becomes a big deal, unfortunately.
The US government has a lot to do with how we are as a society right now and the same can be said to the reality of many countries around the world. IMHO, what happened in the 70s in Chile is what broke our frail identity and we’re still trying to find it. (And a funny thing, when you meet gringos in other countries you can really tell how naive they are about this and so many other things your governments have done throughout history).
I hope everyone from any country can have the chance to travel abroad or to immerse themselves in a different culture. It’s an eye-opening experience. The bad thing is coming back and try to live in this country with your new mindset. How can we improve our current situation?….
Thanks for the kind words and the long comment. Interesting idea about the coup and dictatorship breaking chile’s identity. The US certainly doesn’t have clean hands in many countries, especially chile, but I think it’s important to recognize what happened in the past, but now try to find solutions now.
Lol, it is long 🙂
I think education is key. We need to improve our educational system in order to change our current situation. Ignorant people are easier to manage, but when we start to question our reality, that’s when change can happen.
I hope people in our government could see that. sigh
Grande nate, muy bien!
I do agree, as a Chilean living in Canada for over 27 years and willing to come back to the motherland, I believe Chilean society, despite in some ways being more dynamic than say my old slow french canadian Quebec lifestlye, cruelly lacks the vision and awareness that comes when being confronted to the reality of the rest of the world, especially the so-called “developped counries”. Well I guess the same could be said of Japan and the UK and other insular societies, but at least the former two are actually exposed to the real world, Chile is still too far isolated down there.
Hi Victor, thanks for commenting! I think you’re right, it has to do with distance, isolation and culture for sure.
Nice!! I always thought that stay in Chile it’s a lost of time… I know that I can be really successful in other country and actually I been thinking about leave this country cause it’s just made of lies… If you read the Constitution, you will know it by reading the two first chapters that we’re living in a fake freedom!!
I knew that before and I will know it for ever…
Good post Nathan!!
I disagree with some points, and one seems insulting for me
https://rodsands.wordpress.com/the-best-thing-a-chilean-can-do-is-to-leave-chile-about-guatemala-generalizations-idealizations-and-other-stuff/
y ademas está el tema de la diáspora Chilena, cosa que más que un post, merece un libro
Yo soy europeo con varios años tb en Chile, y estando de acuerdo en lo de que al chileno le viene muy bien salir afuera, quisiera puntualizar desde mi perspectiva alguna cosa.
En primer lugar, encuentro el texto extremadamente eurocéntrico o anglocéntrico: en los países desarrollados, parece decirse, la gente y la sociedad es como tiene que ser; y los países en desarrollo como Chile deberían aprender de aquellos. Pues bien, no sólo a los chilenos les vendría bien conocer mundo, sino quizá aún más a los europeos y norteamericanos; y así descubrir, como nos ha pasado a muchos, que la vida no es fácil y regalada, y que las cosas de que nos quejamos en “occidente” son una broma comparadas con las circunstancias de la mayoría del mundo.
En segundo lugar, parece defenderse la tesis de que la existencia del clasismo y el racismo depende del país; mi idea es más bien que depende del nivel económico alacanzado por la sociedad; Europa y Nortemérica son ahora sociedades ricas en general, y así es muy fácil mirar al prójimo como un igual, pero en el pasado fueron tan clasistas como cualquier país del resto del mundo. De hecho, el clasismo de la superioridad de la gente de “piel y ojos claros” no lo inventaron los chilenos sino más bien los europeos, y de hecho en Europa (no digamos USA) respecto al inmigrante que va a trabajar de “lo que sea” -no ya al integrado en generaciones en la clase media- se le trata con tanto desprecio, por lo general, como aquí, y si nó mírense los guetos denominados de los “cabezas negras” en la “moderna” Suecia.
Por último, ¿no sería legítimo considerar que a nivel mundial, igual que él lo mira en Chile, los europeos y norteamericanos somos como esas clases altas chilenas, qué miran con condescendencia o desinterés al resto del mundo?
Creo que el articulista, viendo una parte de la realidad, se ha puesto anteojeras para mirar con mucha condescendencia su origen de país rico, mucha más que aplica a los ricos (y los pobres) de acá.
So… any personal suggestions? I’ve been abroad, but just for leisure or short business trips.
Very interesting post and quite “enlightening” comments around!
I have many thoughts on this subject but I’ll stick to two.
First, *voluntarily* leaving the place you were born and experiencing a different country is valuable and one of the most effective ways to reduce discrimination and value the richness of your own country. I’d recommend everyone without exception in any country to spend some time away from their place, the benefits are not just to the individual but to the whole society!
Now, the second point is more particular to Chile. As noted somewhere in the comments, the incomes in Chile make it very difficult to travel abroad. Someone said “people should prioritise their expenses” … it’s hard to prioritise when you don’t have enough to live! And I believe that this point is why the statement that “you should leave Chile” is controversial (judging from the comments) as it reminds people of opportunities that they can’t access. But now that I think about it, it is not *only* in Chile.
Take New Zealand for instance. A “tradition” that comes from the British Empire is that of the “overseas experience” for kids when they finish school but even though much more people can afford to travel abroad after finishing school (saving is a big deal) it is not even close to “everyone” as there are low-income families who can’t afford to save and therefore their children don’t have this opportunity. Again in New Zealand, “pakeha” (term used to describe non-natives in general but specifically “of European descent” ), in general spend a year or two abroad in Europe or the US but Maori and Pacific Peoples in general can’t afford it.
So, the message of “get away from your home country for a while” is a sound advice and something that I wish more people could do, it will remain an unattainable dream to most in Chile who can’t get out of the poverty circle and are so busy working to pay the bills.
Hello Nathan.
I really like your post!
I was raised in a non-upper class family but with some privileges.My parents were able to afford a private school in downtown Santiago. They were also able to pay my medical school. I literally jumped from non-upper to an upper class after I finished my residency. This transition was quite interesting, indeed.
At the beginning, my relationship with upper class people was tense, distant, no connections at all. My skin color didn’t match their average (now it does, just kidding…). I felt as an outsider. As time went by, my relationship with upper class people started to get better. In fact, I started to enjoy hanging out with them. I had similar topics to discuss and similar goals to achieve. I preferred to have lunch at “cuero de vaca” than “las vacas gordas”. I ultimately felt safe, surrounded by smart and strong people. Although, I always hated when people talked “con la papa en la boca”, I was getting sophisticated, more demanding, less tolerant to non-educated non-cultured performances. I became a classiest person but “en buena” as you mentioned in your post.
I had the chance to interact with three orthopedic surgeons from Mayo Clinic who were giving some lectures in Chile. I got fascinated by the perfect combination of excellence and humbleness. Few years later, we moved (with my wife and three children) to Rochester MN, to start a two year training at Mayo Clinic.
All you mentioned in your post happened to us. Interestingly, we experienced what an upper and non-upper class person from Chile would experience abroad. I got evaluated not by my skin color or by how many “r” my last name had, I got evaluated by how productive I was. Reputation was based on the number of papers you have published, the teaching skills you have developed, not on how expensive your car was. If you happen to have an expensive car, no one would think you bought it to show your status, you bought it because you liked it, period. We felt free. No pressure from society. My son attended the same public school the son of a renowned surgeon and the son of a plumber did.
Currently, we are living in NYC, things here a less marked and more close to what’s happening in Chile but, you can still feel the difference.
The best thing a Chilean can do is to leave Chile (for a while). Completely agree,
We now care less about “el que diran”. We now care more about what’s deep inside.
What a great comment, thank you very much for sharing!
Hi Nathan, i just read your article and most of the comments, let me narrate my experience as a 21 year old student. I live in Quilpué, in “V región”. I’ve always lived here, as same as my parents. When i was a child my family was very poor, having a few rough years, but my parents were able to overcome the difficult financial situation they were in. Right now i’m studying Mechanical Engineer in a “Instituto profesional”. Even now at this early point of my life, just telling people where i’m studying, i can sense the feel of people looking down on me often, ’cause i’m not in a priviliged university, but i really don’t care because i have the opportunity of being a professional, unlike my parents, who never have even the chance. Telling people to travel abroad in Chile is very difficult (you can see that by the comments), because that idea is mostly discouraged by everybody. In my point of view, people think your are betraying your roots, family and origins just by having that thought. it’s a very complicated issue, especially for people of “Provincias”, where people live all their lives in the same town. I hope that someday i can have the opportunity and bravery to leave the country at least for a couple of months or years, and see the world you’re describing. Thanks for the article, i was greatly impacted by it.
IF you’re still studying, now is the perfect time to study abroad and try an intercambio! It may be a bit expensive, but I highly recommend it if you can figure out a way to make it work!
With all my respect, but I wish to point out some things which I find incorrect:
1. Europe is not all the same. The difference is huge between the South and the North. There is a huge difference, for example between Albania and Iceland, or Finland and Spain.
2. If you are Chilean or from any country of the South hemisphere, neither in Europe nor in the US you are valued according to your skills or intelligence, but by the color of your hair, your skin, or your accent. No matter if you are a genious.
I agree only with the idea that the Chilean elite should go to work in some developed country, preferable some Scandinavian country, where they would learn to do all the domestic work, work hard and still feel like a second class citizen. May be that way they would learn to be more humble.
Totally agree with you Nathan, I’m living abroad almost 15 years now and when I tried to return to live in Chile again, I couldn’t because my mentality has changed and certain things in Chile did not. Good post .
Hi every one, do you realize that this conversation is exclusive, only 10% of chilean are able to maintain a conversation in english. By the way, estoy de acuerdo con Nathan, pero el tema es mas profundo, las decisión de salir sin un trabajo es compleja, aun mas cuando tienes familia… pero como dices si tienes la oportunidad tómala, generalmente es mi consejo a la mayoría de mis estudiantes que están terminando su carrera, ya que para ellos existe la opción de becas y otras ayudas.
developed countries wouldnt be developed if they can snatch on semi developed economies, sweat shops, war on oil, or chilean leg spread investment policies are needed so you can discriminate asian people on times square while talking on your iphone 9.
Well written article, appealing to your market / customer base and controversial on the surface.
Good job.
why do un want us to be like developed countries.. they are evil, USA is like the CENCOSUD of the countries..
Thank you, thank you for saying it!!!! Thank you. I lived in Miami for 5 years (where isn’t the better place) and also have been in many places in europe and canada, and you know Nathan…. has been a relief… I’m an stranger in my own country now and when I have the opportunity to leave Chile for good I returned. Why? to many reasons, but no one has convinced me to think that it was the correct choice. Now I’m trying to survive here in Chile and has been a really hard work, a gross effort each day. To have the opportunity to see, to see the world has given me many choices, many ideas and my concience grow up, but at the same time has been sad to understand what is the chilean society today…and I hope to freedom my kids from that “lastre”….liability in english may be.
I’d a blast reading a lot of comments on facebook, classic Chilean, can’t understand a concept, get offended easily with things they even can’t comprehend.
The thing is that just like USA, half if not more, are absolute ignorants, live in a bubble and just a waste of time to deal with them. And you will find it at every country you can visit, but when talking about society as a whole, even Chileans with a grasp of knowledge and oportunities won’t understand too much, since it’s a rare concept for us. Too much individualism yet.
100% agree Nathan. Thank you for showing us this.
Nathan, I find your column interesting… I enjoyed some of your arguments, yet I have to disagree with some of the ideas that you present. I have lived in the US for 12 years, and the level of discrimination here is HUGE! The ideal of the American Dream is certainly not a truth for many within the US. The reality for a vast majority is not that you will do well if you work hard. The truth for many is not that opportunities are for all. At the beginning I only had my own experience to inform me, the experience of a White heterosexual woman, and thought that discrimination wasn’t that much and people were so friendly. However, really soon I was fortunate to become friends with people from different groups regarding race, ethnicity, age, abilities, socioeconomic status, religion, etc.. I saw how big of a problem classism and racism is here. It is true what you say about benefiting from leaving one’s own country. But I also believe that the idealization of one’s own country in the path to openness to other countries can be huge. And then we really are not opening our eyes… I can only speak about experience in the US, as I have not lived in Europe… I think in Chile we have a huge issue with Classism. I think in the US there is a huge issue with Racism (and now unfortunately they are tying religion to race and giving it several attributions when in fact they are not necessarily related). In the end, these problems are all related to similar issues… Social Justice, intolerance of difference, power… Perhaps we cannot change the socio-political-structures that are maintaining such differences in each of our countries and our host countries… But hopefully when we leave we open our eyes… To see the new (and others countries) from a critical perspective and see one’s own country from a critical perspective… And then hopefully we make a commitment to try to make a difference every day in our own interactions to dispel such discrimination, in whichever place we are calling home.
And replying again to show you it’s never been deleted, just got posted twice!
Got it again!
Nathan, I find your column interesting… I enjoyed some of your arguments, yet I have to disagree with some of the ideas that you present. I have lived in the US for 12 years, and the level of discrimination here is HUGE! The ideal of the American Dream is certainly not a truth for many within the US. The reality for a vast majority is not that you will do well if you work hard. The truth for many is not that opportunities are for all. At the beginning I only had my own experience to inform me, the experience of a White heterosexual woman, and thought that discrimination wasn’t that much and people were so friendly. However, really soon I was fortunate to become friends with people from different groups regarding race, ethnicity, age, abilities, socioeconomic status, religion, etc.. I saw how big of a problem classism and racism is here. It is true what you say about benefiting from leaving one’s own country. But I also believe that the idealization of one’s own country in the path to openness to other countries can be huge. And then we really are not opening our eyes… I can only speak about experience in the US, as I have not lived in other countries besides US and my own… I think in Chile we have a huge issue with Classism. I think in the US there is a huge issue with Racism (and now unfortunately they are tying religion to race and giving it several attributions when in fact they are not necessarily related). In the end, these problems are all related to similar issues… Social Justice, intolerance of difference, power… Perhaps we cannot change the socio-political-structures that are maintaining such differences in each of our countries and our host countries… But hopefully when we leave we open our eyes… To see the new (and others countries) from a critical perspective and see one’s own country from a critical perspective… And then hopefully we make a commitment to try to make a difference every day in our own interactions to dispel such discrimination, in whichever place we are calling home.
Replying to your comment so you can see its never been deleted!
Got it!
I think you are right in many aspects,but you have a very romantic vision about those developed countrys you talk about.
For example,part of my family is British,when I am with them I don’t feel discriminated,to them I’m not Chilean,because I’m white,I speak English and I have English names.
They talk about Chileans (or any other Latin person )from a very ignorant point of view,to them chile is just a piece of land with no banks and old cars,to them Chileans are all in “need” of a better life.
They don’t feel they have to know if what they think it’s true,it’s just comfortable to think that way,and that happens in general.
That’s just a piece of a chosen ignorance that’s even worse than discrimination.
Not admitting we are isolated, we are small minded, classist and racist is proof we are a society that cant look at their own mistakes (hence will never improve them). We are just like this, doesnt matter if ellite or non ellite, just like the girl who wouldnt marry the son of the “unnamed” nanny, and the son of the nanny that discriminates the boy with the Mapuche or the Peruvian origin. We need to think out of our box as we have been sold the scam that Chile is on its way to a developed country when we are still selling raw materials to buy them back on a different shape, and ellite ppl say poor ones are valuable persons when their wages can barely afford the ridiculous expensive life in our little and beautiful country. This is why I totally agree with this post, having an experience abroad, knowing other cultures and realize there are other ways of thinking it will open our mind and help ourselves to improve things we are doing wrong…Thanks for the post, I like when somebody is able to say what others dont necessarily want to hear…specially when it comes to their own flaws…by the way I am Chilean, I have never lived abroad (im planning to), I do not belong to the elite class, I am a single mum and not blonde…and I have discriminated a bunch of ppl in my life…not proud of it, but at least I am willing to admit it and try to change it. It’s a start, the change is up to us.
Hi Paulina, thanks for sharing your experience!
Thank you for your great post, it feels like I wrote it, this is pretty clear for those who have been abroad working and living with other society, and sadly most people in Chile won’t see it.
Hi Fernando, thanks for commenting, I’m glad you enjoyed it!
Que lata ver tantas camionadas de arena en la vagina de mis compatriotas, como sí las palabras de Nathan no tuviesen la menor certidumbre…por eso siempre seremos un país bananero con esa mentalidad tan ‘saco weas’ que tenemos como país; ‘elite’ de Chile, procedan a chupar el perro.
LOVE the article, I believe that this is not only for Chileans, but for all people around the globe that had been absorbed by the absurd of their country and their society. Getting to see a different world, new ways of doing things, listening to different opinions and having the opportunity to see the big picture of something or whatever is new, as newborns do. Make you analyze, think and open you horizon to new paths that otherwise you could never be able to see. This new way of thinking is what demolish the walls of our square minds and can actually take down prejudgements and give us an opportunity to acceptance, positive challenge and personal growth. Thinking with the thrilled of hope can make us realized that we are only human beings that exist with peers that could give you the same charm and smile from the soul that you wish you can remember to share everyday, anywhere to everyone, specially with you.
Hi Mariana, thanks for commenting!
Nathan Lustig, I had the experience to live in Chile too, for 5 years and very early on my stay one of my cousins that came with me from Canada started falling for the poor neighbors daughter that lived beside my grandfather’s beach home. Quicky realizing the stan on some of my relatives. It was a huge issue and we argued about it but we did not win that argument. From that moment I understood the Chilean classist way and how hard people try to impress other to show they are from that upper Chilean class, so much that even when it comes to presidential elections they vote for the conservative party to show their upper class friends he/she belongs in this upper class. I found it so wrong cause the only real privilege lower class Chileans really have equal to the higher class is their vote. For every election the image of this situation comes up to my head and wonder only if the lower class Chileans understood how important their vote was to better or increase there chances for a better feature, they most likely would change there vote. Chile is a great country and if only we could get rid of this classist and internal racist way to discriminate each other could change Chile in a good way. All the best for Chile.
that’s exactly what chileans did in 1970, they used their vote for what seemed to be at that time the only possible option to get a better future, now we now how all that ended up. 🙁
I’m a gringo from Philadelphia, PA (USA) and married a Chilean who is from the lower working class (family is from Lota). My wife came to the USA to be an Au Pair for 1 year with no intentions on staying. That was 5 years ago. During this time she has graduated from a state university with honors and completed her degree in 3.5 years (average american usually finishes in 5 years). She is now working on her Masters while working a full time job. As impressed as I am of her hard work and intelligence, she admits that she never would have been able to be this successful if she stayed home because ones families social status, surname, skin color, etc. determine one’s level of success in Chile, not how intelligent they are. I found this hard to believe at first, but after reading your article, I may have to side with her. But the bigger question I have now is how would she be viewed in Chile if we returned there to live? Will her and/or her families social status change because she now has a gringo last name, a masters level education from a good university, and work experience? Or will she still be treated as a non-elite because of her skin color and facial features? An even better question is will our children be differently because one of them retained her facial features and skin color while the other had lighter skin and blue eyes like me? I didn’t realize that the prejudice you write about was that bad or obvious … is it?
Can’t be more agree to this post… I haven’t been to much time outside Chile, however, the time I have spent outside has allowed me to see the huge difference of other cultures compared to the chilean one… In 2010 I spent almost a month in Australia and from the first second I feel the difference… Fortunately, I’ve been raised in a way that doesn’t recognizes different classes, I was taught to recognize the people values as a person/human being, not for how much they make, what kind of car they have or if the way they talk… Best regards Nathan and awesome post…
Hi Hugo, thanks for commenting!
Hi Nathan, hope you can read in Spanish, I wrote this mainly because all the comments your article received in Bio Bio and other places… I´m sad with the final outcome and the comments like “Chile is terrible” I might be called a nationalist and in some way I am, I´ve been here doing my best to contribute… so, of course reading to all the bad comments (written by other Chileans, inspired by you) about my country hurts.
http://www.matsya.cl/carta-abierta-nathan-lustig/
Thanks for taking the time to write a blog post in response. I commented on your blog!
wow..just wow fella!
I just left Chile to live in another under developed country (Brazil) and you are totally right man… thanks once again!
Ricardo, thanks for commenting! Enjoy Brazil!
What you write is (painfully) truthful. I am one of those non-elite Chileans and I am one of those lucky few who have been able to live in first world countries for a while. Living in a different culture gives you a perspective of the world you would never have dreamed of before. You are able to see yourself as you are through the eyes of people unbiased by the cultural constraints of the place where you were born. I always thought skin color was not really an issue in Chile, especially when compared to the reality of countries such as the US. The truth is racism is as complex and present in Chile as in the US, we just won’t admit it.
Claudia, thanks for commenting, I pretty much agree!
I am in fact just days away from returning to Chile after being away for a couple of years. My one hope is that I can help those around me see that there is a much bigger world out there beyond the technical island our country is. At the same time I would like us to see the the things we think set us apart from others are not really as significant as those we share in common to other countries and cultures.
Nathan,
This is my ‘ Trump prhase’… Chile needs a deep social surgery to ground it’s elit and take away that sense of entitlement’ .
hHaving a family dinner with a guest should’nt be seen as a sign of good Samaritan.
This approach of being good or better if I have a lunch with the cleaning lady of baby sitter in Canada doesn’t have any sense! It would make a sense to say; the baby sitter had a dinner with the family where she provides service, but no one would see the family as someone that is better or worst human been cause you ‘ had a dinner with her. People have dinner together for good sharing and not for ‘ fake compassion. I cannot visualize someone here saying; in my family, we arr humble and ground people cause we had a dinner with the electrician or the cleaning lady ( i would be jealous if I heard that of my wife!) but never thing that I am a sound an better human but.
Daniela is 100 % part of the social discourse that needs that social surgery. One is not better person cause ‘ u have a dinner with someone else , the chilean being see it as a sign of good or better one cause u share the table with someone low class. The reality, this is a kind of social redemption for these ‘ catholics wanna be ..
Regards,
Great post Nathan! I 100% agree with you and you explained it brilliantly without disdain.
To avoid further comments, I would like to say that I’m French and have been living 25 years in France and 18 in Chile. I’m quite “más chilena que los porrotos”! I don’t have an accent when I speak Spanish and am mostly considered Chilean on my daily relationships. When Chilean people start thinking that I’m not, it’s more because of my points of view than anything else. I live in Ñuñoa with my two children and I am a C2-C3 class. Add to that that I’ve been working in many different companies and with many different people from all the social classes. And the most important thing: I live in Chile because I felt in love with the country and the people. And everything that I can tell about it and them is to try getting a fairer society.
That said, I would add the following to your article:
– the classist system: it’s not only about skin or head color (“tez” as it is called here and I’m not sure that it has an equivallent in other languages) but also about wording (“habla de corrido”) or behaviour. The major consequence of the classist system is that lower class people tend to be less confident in themselves than upper class people. Whoever has been dealing with clients know that. What does that mean? That upperclass clients will approach with the confidence that their problem will be solved because they’re who they are (and if they don’t find a solution they will give you their last name or “aplastar con el apellido”) and lower class will ask for a favour. It’s a huge difference!
– trusting other people: in order to trust other people, you have to feel empathy and be able to put your feet in someone’s else shoes. The mistrust in the Chilean society comes from a long time ago (the “Gobierno popular” and after that Pinochet’s dictatorship) that teached Chilean people that they cannot trust anybody (sometimes within the same families).
– Being passive agressive: it’s one of the rare common points throughout the society without class discrimination. It has much to do with the fact that “public” or “common” stuff is taken here as “nobody owns that” instead of if it’s common, everyone own a bit of it. The consequences are that eveybody defends his/her “right to” instead of their obligation to take care of it.
– No! About saying just “no”, I could write an article! And this is another point that doesn’t depend on your class. Quite nobody knows here how to refuse wathever (invitation, proposal, etc) on a simple way. “Lo que pasa es que” and many other excuses are valid to change your mind or explain afterwards their reasons.
I also agree with Daniela’s comment and have heard many times “if you don’t like it, leave it”. It’s not just that. I won’t leave after so many years just for that. I can vote but not express my opinion?!!!
I really would like the “Penguins” program to be available to all. It’s a program that allow Chilean low class kids to study 6 months abroad living with a local familly. I think that this may finally be the solution to allow everybody (not for now) to know what’s happening outside of the Chilean borders. In France, each student goes to a “transplanted” class (at least once, sometimes twice or more), which is thought to discover the montain, sea or land. At the end, this allows students to learn about other realities. How many children living in Santiago haven’t seen or better played in the snow? Too many. And it is only one hour away! Rent a bus, ask fathers to send a “collacion” and that’s it. It’s not more complicated than that! On the same subject, how many kids in Chile are not teached about swimming. Chile has 4.000 km of coasts. It’s just unbelievable.
Chile is a great country and Chileans are great people. They just need to open their mind to what’s happening in the world.
Steph, thanks for the well though out comment, i appreciate it!
Hi Steph (is that your name?), I really liked your comment. Regarding our inability to say no, i wouldn’t say that is only Chilean. I’ve heard so many latinos from different countries having a hard time with that. I don’t find that that is necessarily a flaw. If you know how to go about it (and I’m sure you do after 18 years in Chile), and don’t fight it, you can get the results you want. It might just take a little longer. I want to share something with you so please bear with me. Have you ever heard that you are not supposed to buy something in an Arabic culture without bargaining for it before you actually get it? If you come from the West it must be infuriating to have to go to that extent when I just want to pay for what I want and leave the place. I worked at an organization that helped immigrants and refugees. Many of the African refugees that enrolled in ESL class with tutors would not show to their class. The tutor was waiting for an hour or two and the student just did not show up, no phone call, no excuse, no anything. When we asked them what happened, they would say that on their way to class they ran into their neighbor (from the same country or region), and as they started talking the neighbor said that his/her daughter was sick, so the student offered some comfort and hanged out with their neighbor and forgot about the class. The tutor was livid because he/she had to pay for transportation to come to the place and this student was not even interested in learning (the tutor’s assumption). What I’m trying to say here is that in both cases people are trying to be respectful, but because we are not aware of the reasons behind their behavior, we judge them based on our own values (western idea of how business is conducted and you come to a place on time and do not make the other person wait). Business in some Arabic cultures is a way of building relationships so the bargaining is also an invitation to get to know you a little better. You don’t just take what you want and leave. That’s disrespectful. As for some African cultures (I can’t say everywhere), relationships are also very important. More than anything else, so if I have to miss a class or be late for a doctor’s appointment, that might have to happen because the relationship with my neighbor and his/her family is more important. This is a way too long explanation to say that: when Chileans say: “es que no se”, “puede ser”, “llamame y te digo” or whatever, they don’t want to hurt your feelings. Being brusque and saying no right away is disrespectful. I know you don’t see it that way because “assertiveness” is taught as a value everywhere. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, I’m just saying that you can switch back and forth. You can be assertive or expect assertiveness from your western friends/family, and with Chileans, well you can read between the lines. After all, that’s what biculturalism is about. We swim in two seas, and we are comfortable n both. Saludos, sorry it was so long.
When I started to read your articule I felt very happy. I could not agree more with your view. I have been thinking for a long time that Chile it is an extreme example of what happen when you stimulate the segregation as a rule of society. Chile it was a very different country 45 years ago. The introduction of Neoliberalism changed brutally the cultural and moral worldview of chileans. Personally, being Chilean I am not feel part of my Country and it is sad because I could explain the facts you describe without expect a good reaction of my compatriots.
The big problem we should face it is the lack of social interaction, Chile finally it has become in a multiplicity of economic and social bubbles where the thing most representative it is the ignorance and the lack of empathy about the other. Sometimes I think Chile should not exist, and I am very responsible with this statement. If you see the political situation of Chile it is dramatic, a Government elected with only 3 millions of votes in a Country with more than 18 million of people. Take your conclusions. In addition all the cases of corruption with the frauds that has lived the country in this year are only the real evidence of the decadence of a economic model with a moral based in an unlimited ambition of more and more. The impunity it has became in another law in Chile. A country without memory without essential human rigths guaranteed. Whatever, we need to leave here. pd: Sorry if my grammar in english it is not so good, I am learning yet.
DMO, don’t worry your english is good! Do you really think it’s only a 45 year old problem? From what I’ve read and my understanding from talking to Chileans is that Chile’s been extremely classist/arribista since the spanish arrived. Maybe its gotten worse in the last 45 years, or other things have gotten worse, but I’m not so sure that’s the biggest reason.
Fair point. If well Chile from the beginning has been a Country with sharp social differences, if you study in depth the recent history and some documentations, you could understand many aspects of current behaviour of Chilean society and their sociological and cultural evolution. And I want to be clear with something, this is not a ideological view. I recommend you review some information in order to broaden your ideas, you can study this with an holistic perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnZI4RX5Fh4 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruYq2QvWhVM – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY64mUbiEIk – http://thesocietypages.org/sociologylens/2012/10/02/a-brief-examination-of-neoliberalism-and-its-consequences/ – http://rebels-library.org/files/d3Thompson-1.pdf
Los problemas que Nathan expone son los problemas que muchos paise desarrollados y sub- desarrollados tienen. Vivo en California y hoy dia todas las escuelas estan cerradas por aviso de bombas y un College esta cerrado por que han visto un hombre armado caminando en los pasillos. Si piensan que la vida es mejor afuera de Chile, viven en un mundo de fantasia. Europa tiene mas grandes problemas con terroristas. Creanme la vida fuera de Chile es dura y estaran expuestos no tan solo a clasismo. Tambien racismo, mal mirados porque hablan con acento, y los trabajos son trabajos que no harian ni en sus suenos en Chile.
Patrick, gracias por comentar, pero creo que no entendiste bien mi punto. No estoy diciendo que esta mejor fuera de chile 100%, la tesis es que deberías viajar para darse cuenta de las cosas que son mejores fuera de tu país, y también los que son mejores dentro de tu país. Por ejemplo, lo encuentro chistoso que los chilenos le encanta quejarse de transantiago. Quizás es porque el sistema anterior era mejor, pero llegando desde afuera, transantiago y el metro es mejor que todos los sistemas en estados unidos, menos quizás NYC y solo porque funciona 24/7.
Obviamente Estados Unidios tiene sus problemas también, pero no significa que no vale la pena salir de chile para conocer y aprender lo que otros países tienen de bueno y también para reconocer las cosas que chile hace mejor.
I’m Chilean and I had the opportunity to study abroad for a while. I can say that it was a big perspective to me of the world, ’cause I could meet a new culture and not only of the place where I was studying, I met a lot of people from other countries and it was an learning that it will mark me for my whole life.
After that opportunity of studies when I returned to Chile was a culture shock and the only thing I wanted to do was go back to that wonderful country, I felt that I had learned more than all the years I’ve been living here in Chile.
Until today the only thing that I want to do is come back and make a life there ’cause i know if I keep here I’m not gonna have big opportunities like there.
I’m not part of the elite of Chile and I’m only 20 years, I really would like to go back and finish my studies there but are so expensive that I have to leave my dreams of a better life in a country full of opportunities and keep me in Chile looking for a chance.
The States? You’re kidding right? Made me laugh. I get your point about the difference in population etc. but seriously, the average American is as dumb and ignorant as a wall, and the worse part is that the other 160 million are well, even dumber. Yes, I’m Chilean and yes, I’ve lived in the States and yes, I now live in Australia and have been to every continent and experienced many cultures and fact is people are the same everywhere, it takes a while to see the ugly side in some places but believe me, it’s there. At least in places like Chile it’s obvious and people know it and can choose to do something about it. The States on the other hand is a place where I met so many people who would tell me how ‘fair’ their country was when to an outsider it is plain obvious that it isn’t. Maybe the article should read “The best thing an American can do is to leave America” that way, like you, they may finally realise people outside of the US are people and not just ‘national interests’.
you should write it. be happy to read it.
What would be the point of that Nathan? The target audience would be limited to the 50% below the average American and most of them either can’t read or are too busy watching TV. If you lived in Chile as you claim then you would understand the saying ‘como andamos por casa?’ and would have thought twice before adding the states as a valid alternative to your argument. There little personal growth to be found by living there aside from realising that discrimination can in fact be not only a systemic issue (as is in both countries) but also one which is so institutionalised that it blinds the group benefiting from it from ever setting it.
Asking someone to do it themselves when criticised is such a lazy and childish response, but I guess you realise that.. At least I hope you do.
You really think there’s absolutely nothing to learn from the US? Not even good customer service? It seems pretty ridiculous to me that you think Chileans couldn’t benefit from at least SOME things in the US. It’s clearly not a paradise but your comment does’t really make much sense at all. It’s the same comment that many of the people who don’t like the post say…don’t come in and tell us what to do…the US is a mess. That to me, is a very lazy argument that doesn’t make much sense.
One of the things that I despise about my beautiful country, Chile, is the classism. I’ve lived in Australia for over 23 years and have only been back to Chile once in my early 20s because I hated to see the huge gap between the privileged and the poor. I also hated the ‘colonial’ mentality of my fellow Chileans who don’t have the confidence to believe they are enough and worthy… I know Chile is lacking in many aspects “but geez we are awesome!”: Our culture, our spark, our hospitality our openness and warmth and lets not forget our Mapuche who kicked the Spanish’s ass. But why don’t we get the same treatment when we go to a Western country? To be honest, it annoyed me when in Chile I saw people going out of their way trying to make gringos feel welcome. Then I understood that it is simply our nature. This is the same nature that made the Aztecs trust the Spanish only to be deceived and murdered later. The response to your article illustrates this very nature of ours. We respond because we believe that your opinion is valuable whether we agree or not. On the other hand, if it had been an article written by a Chilean or someone from another “non-developed” country about a Western nation I doubt people would have taken it seriously because it is in the nature of the majority of Anglo-Saxons or Westerners to feel superior. They are taught this either directly or indirectly. I see this all the time in Australia and I am sure that it happens in the USA as well. Yes, travel would benefit Chileans, but would it be enough to correct that mentality that colonialism imprinted on us? Would it be enough to fight back the continuous subliminal messages our children get telling them that white is better? Will the elite be willing to surrender their position of privilege and power? My experience as a migrant is that, yes, one can be successful but no too successful. I have to dumb myself down because I am a migrant…How dare I consider myself equal to an Anglo. My child , for instance, is gifted and has been accelerated twice. How dare she be outspoken and confident? It is not as easy as you think in a Western country. Whites will not easily relinquish their power…
As someone who comes from what you call “Chilean elite” and who has lived most of his life in the US and Germany (since 1963) I agree with many of Nathan’s comments, especially those about overt and subtle classism. But isn’t that something that you will encounter at all places in the world? Isn’t this difference between “us” and “them” something quite general for human beings? In LA blacks and Mexicans live in their neighborhoods, in Germany there is a parallel society of turks, in France of arabs etc. The speciality of Chilean classism is not that it exists, since that seems to belong to the “human kind”, but that of little permeability between the social classes. In the case of Chile and also of most ex-colonial countries you have two kinds of population with different looks, the European and the indigene people. Although most Chileans are somewhat mestizo – Spaniards were less rassist than other Europeans – the idea that European ancestry is more worth than the Indian one has obviously prevailed since the colonial times. This is why a light skin is considered a sign of better ancestry. In the process of colonisation the Europeans took the lead and noone would prefer to belong to the underdogs. Isn’t that also true in the US? This is surely nothing to be proud of, but it is one of those things that need many generations to change. Since Chile is becoming richer, this fact will have a heavy factor in expanding the permeability. As one may learn from so-called developed countries a wealthy economy cannot afford a classism that rules out intelligence by giving preference to a certain class or type of people. That will change the Chilean society in the same way it has in so-called developed countries. And that will weigh much more than the personal knowledge of having lived abroad. At least, this is something to hope for.
I think the speciality of Chilean classism is that even if you’re smart, work hard and get lucky enough to be successful, you’re never able to “escape” your last name, where you when to colegio and your “non upper class” looks. Whereas in the US, Canada and most of Europe, if you’re successful, and get out of poverty or the lower levels of society, you’re more or less accepted. Obviously a Mexican or black person still might have some amount of legacy racism to deal with, but it’s not like Chile’s special classism that’s with you for life, you can’t change it by working hard and being successful.
When I meet with a very successful “non elite” chilean who’s about 15 years older than me, the waiter almost always hands me the check, even though my friend is much more successful than I am. That wouldn’t happen in the US and if it didn’t it wouldn’t be the norm.
I believe that you are referring to a very special small group of Upper Class Chileans which in fact is getting less and less influential. If you give a look at the richest families in Chile you’ll find many “last names” that don’t belong at all to what you are reffering at, that is, to the traditional Basque and North European high society. The middle class is though growing and in that group these old names have little or no significance any more. But anyhow there exists for sure a classist tendency that is based mostly and meanwhile almost completely on economical power. Many of these rich people were not born rich. That you’ll find all over the world – in the US for instance in the region of the WASPs and New England. Chile is an American country, unfortunately a poorer version than the US but with a similar history of colonialism with the exception that the USA has developed much better economically.
By the way, perhaps you have heard of an old joke saying that an US-American had flown over Chile and had used that to give a thorough account of the country in all aspects. One should be prudent about malusing personal experiences as a proof for knowledge and general norms… unless it was done journalistically with the sole intention of being impressive.
I dont belong nor the higher class nor the poor, am just in between, and I most say that it exist, the discrimination, racism and the delusion of equality. You just have to see the range of salary in this country, a ‘nanny’ works for the minimum and it is as low as it can be legal, as for a doctor or lawyer they make 15 to 100 times more than the minimum salary….in other countries this difference is not that aberrant….so I agree in much of what you are saying about this subject…we need mind and heart changes ( pardon my english)
Hi Nathan,
Interesting insight and I fully agree with you about Chileans having to go live abroad. I lived for four years in Wellington-New Zealand to go to uni. However, I feel that the discussion went on a tanget.
In your article you describe in a very stereotypical way the “elite” in Chile, but I would argue that most comments you made could be said for the “Stereoptypical Elite” anywhere in the world. What would your description be of the top 7% in the US, the UK, France, etc. That top 7% has immensely more money than ours and are probably just as classicist.
Also, I would guess that, of this top 7% in Chile, 6% leaves in Santiago and if you’re a foreigner working for a good company, chances are you are going to be part of this society. I feel you compare the elite in Chile with the middle class in the US or other developed countries, because our “elite” (schools, neighborhoods, cars, etc) resembles what middle class people have access to in developed countries. When people from the “elite” in Chile go abroad they become part of the bunch, and this is what brings a reality check.
I dislike exactly what you point out, but many of your comments are actually more true in lower middle class than upper middle class. Also, you seem to confound racism in Chileans with Xenophobia. Considering that in Chile we practically had 0 blacks and 0 slavery trade throughout our history, our population hasn’t been exposed to this race, for example. Therefore racism towards blacks is more prominent in less wealthy areas as they haven’t had the chance to travel or have a narrower education. However, what happens towards Peruvians, Boliveans, etc has to do with xenophobia in the Chilean society and not class or social status. Also, what happens with the Mapuche is very similar to what happens with Indians in the US, the Maori in New Zealand, the aborigines in Australia, and is a point that still needs to be resolved all over the world and that arises from the conflicts from the expansion of Spain, the UK, France, Holand, etc. An painstakingly, think of whats happening to Muslims world wide. There are so little in Chile that I don’t think anyone has given them a second thought.
I do agree very much with your points (except for “kids” having to leave the nest, as it doesn’t really affect progress), but I would argue that this is for society as a whole. Lower class resent upper classes, upper classes look down on lower, there is a very narrow minded view on how the world works and prejudice against gender, race, sexual orientation, country. There is disrespect for the elderly, the environment and our core values are incredibly messed up and commercial oriented. Anyone that lives abroad, from any country to anywhere will always be improved in his/her perception as they will have had been taken out into something different, whether its the US to Chile, or Chile to the US or UK to Italy, etc.
Thank you for your article, as I believe it adds to a discussion that is much needed and that so far hasn’t even been mentioned in the education reforms happening in Chile. That we need to shape our society differently and change our values to reach development, not just give free education.
Cheers
Hi Daniel, thanks for sharing your perspective. I think the biggest different in the “upper class” of the countries you mention is that they don’t control the country like they do in Chile. Also, since there’s so many more people with money and power, if you run into a classist “upper class” person in the US, you can just say “what an asshole” and move on to the next one, who probably isn’t going to think that way. It’s really unlikely that a US company will decide not to hire a very qualified person to hire someone clearly less qualified person. The competition is just too strong. A company that does this is a losing company. In Chile, many companies still use “buena presencia” to hire people, effectively eliminating 80-90% of potential applicants. That’s the difference in classism in Chile and other -isms in other countries.
I also disagree with your comment on leaving the nest. A 28 year old who’s learned how to pay rent, cook food, shop at the grocery store, do laundry, keep a house clean etc and deal with adversity a bit almost for sure has more life experience than the same 28 year old that lived at home with Mom.
Hi Nathan, Thanks for replying. Regarding the first point, I agree with you except that the clear size difference between Chile and US, as well as economy, is the factor that influences these dynamics. The bigger the country, the more room for competition, the more companies and the least chances of running into the same people all the time. And the more variety. Chile is small. I do agree we have to change that though. You would be amazed though how this “classicism” doesn’t always come from “upper class”.
On your second argument, I agree 100%. I was just stating that this doesn’t necessarily affect progress in the way we both want to see Chile steer towards. More experience in “independent” life doesn’t translate in a less prejudiced society, or anything really. I wouldn’t say it’s a wrong societal trait to have, but I understand how it can be seen as infantile and childish for people from a culture that leaves home at 18, and specially frustrating for relationships as at 28, some people still have to ask permission to do things.
I still think that our size is a big factor in your discoveries and generalizations.
Cheers
I’m from Chile and I couldn’t agree more with what you wrote, and I think that the ones who doesn’t it’s because they basically live in a bubble. The best way to get a nice job here is to know people who knows people and that’s not fair, you could be amazing at what you do but if you don’t know enough people you’ll never rise and maybe that’s one of the things I dislike the most about my country.
That’s why I hope I can leave as soon as I finish my career.
Hi Maria Ignacia, thanks for commenting and leaving your perspective.
Great article Nathan! Good to read things that make sense and are real. I have lived in several countries for many years and sometimes it is difficult to think about going back due to the Chilean mentality. Living abroad certainly opens your mind.
Hi Astrid, thanks for commenting!
Hi Nathan,
I find myself disappointed to find out that even if you have managed to educate yourself you will still not be fully accepted in today’s Chilean society. At an early age, I left a somewhat poor neighborhood in Santiago, Chile to start a new life in Fairfield County, CT. I immediately found myself interacting with some of the wealthiest people in the planet, and with some of the poorest in the nation. My perception of people quickly changed. I realized that the standards of beauty were different in my new adopted nation(and in most of the world), and that people judged one another based on their character, not their skin color or social background(in most cases). Every now and then I would tell my new friends that if we lived in Chile we would have never interacted with one another, that it is extremely rare for different social classes to mingle, but that concept did not make sense to them.
I have to admit that I was guilty myself of following the Chilean standards of judging people, but I was quickly educated on those standards when I saw minorities get the same respect that anyone else deserves. As it should be. Later in life, when I started working, I witnessed how my superiors judged employees based on their competences, not skin color or social background. I realized that being a motivated, driven individual could get you further in life in the US than it could ever get you in Chile. And as a non-elite Chilean I was truly thankful to my parents for having taken me out of such backwards society.
I now live in Sweden, a country that embraces egalitarianism and where most citizens meet Chilean standards of beauty, yet they do not feel superior to their South American peers. Every now and then I ponder with the thought of moving back to Chile, and wonder how I would fit into society there. However, after reading your post it seems as I’m gonna fall into the category of those “many non-elite Chileans [who]don’t come back for a long time, unless they have to.”
I was glad to read your outsider’s point of view on Chile’s society, and I am even gladder to see that I am not the only one who firmly believes that there is something extremely wrong with the way we treat each other.
Greetings,
Moisés
Hi Moisés, what a great comment! Thanks for sharing your experience, it’s really fun to read! If I could give it more than one like I would!
Fully agree 🙂
Excelente post Nathan, desafortunadamente no he tenido la oportunidad de vivir fuera de Chile, pero con un viaje de una semana a Europa, compartiendo con personas de todo el mundo, especificamente Francia, vivi muchas cosas en el día a día que ya lograron un gran cambio en mi forma de ver las cosas tanto como para descubrir que en mi querido país aun existen situaciones lamentables como las que describes. Me encantó tu post ya que aunque vivo con esta realidad día a día, se que tenemos mucho por mejorar y que es absolutalemente posible.
Hola Martin, muchas gracias por el comentario!
“Non-elite Chileans quickly realize that lighter skin and blonde hair isn’t always aspirational in every part of the world.” sorry but what about colorism?, are you denying the fact that colonialism has put the whiteperson blond hair and blue eyes as something everyone wants to achieve?
“people live at home until they’re in your mid 20-30s” whats the deal with gringos and they need to have that mentality of “LEAVE THE HOUSE INTERMEDIATELY UNLESS UR NOT A REAL ADULT” like seriously, not every culture shares it and its certainly not some sort of ideal for everyone (nor it should be).
“hey see that (shockingly!) white people do manual labor in some developed countries. That some people find dark skinned people more attractive than lighter skinned people.” oh! thats right i remember, ha silly me! Finland, Norway, Sweden even U.S.A has a deep cultural and ideological love of all kind of “skins”, ¿ what? ¿systematical racism and prejudice? nono of course that a one time thing
“Both upper class and non upper class Chileans should leave Chile to see what it’s like to live in a society where service is excellent, people trust each other and are generally nice to each other in day-to-day interaction” seriously what the hell? i didn’t knew we lived in such a hell hole!! thank you so much for opening my eyes!!!!!!!!!!!
“That asking for things directly is probably the best way to get what they want. That saying no to things they don’t want is much easier than saying yes to everything when they really mean no.” wheres your article expecting the same to Japanese people? or its only fair cause we are Chilean?
“They learn to be more independent and not to always be able to rely on their parents getting them out of jams well into their 20s. It gives them a chance to raise their expectations for Chile so that when they come back home, they have a new attitude about what is possible, what is right and how they want to live their lives. By far the best thing a Chilean can do is to leave Chile. At least for a year or two” And again the same thing, you must have a sociology, anthropology or psicology degree to have such qualms!! im truly impressed how you could just in such tiny pragraph condense all about the society in there ! TRULY YOU MUST BE A GENIUS !!!
“Note: I think the best thing someone from the US can do is to leave for a few years too, but if a US citizen doesn’t leave, the downside is much less than if a Chilean never leaves.” ah…of course…
Quite the rant Catalina, i find it quite odd that you’d be so offended by a blog post like this. If you don’t agree with an opinion, no worries, but you really read way more into the post than is there. I’ll respond to a few of your points below.
Yes, I’m denying that “everyone” wants the be white. It’s not aspirational everywhere else in the world like it is in chile and many places in Latam.
You don’t have to leave the house to be a real adult, but you have mucho more independent experiences if you do. If you don’t want to leave, no worries, you don’t have to. But if Chile wants to be economically and culturally a first world country, more people will need to be independent, and one of the best ways to do it is to support yourself from a younger age, if you can.
You don’t live in a hell hole, but there’s certainly Chile can learn about customer service, trust and being nice in day to day interactions from other countries. Just like other countries can learn many things from chile.
I don’t live in Japan, so I’m not going to write about Japan. And even if I did, I’m not going to put it in a post about chile, it doesn’t make any sense.
Haha, I am a political scientist, so many you’ll think my opinion counts more? You don’t have to be a genius to see that experience outside of your home country might open your mind. That’s the entire point of the post, something you missed because you took it as a personal attack, which it clearly isn’t.
Hola. Me gustó tu columna. Estoy de acuerdo con gran parte de los ejemplos; sin embargo, aún si no lo estuviese, creo que lo principal es porque siempre ampliar la visión del mundo entrega conocimientos y nuevas oportunidades y en este caso, eso sólo se logra “partiendo”. Te iba a pedir la versión en español para compartirla pero veo que ya la tienes. Saludos.
Hi Nathan
Your opinion is very interesting. I agree with you very much on that Chile is a classist country, but I have a question for you: here in Chile, have you lived in any other city than Santiago? I’m asking because living in “provincia” is very different than living in Santiago. In Santiago classism and segregation are brutal. I say it out of personal experience, since I learned it when I left Puerto Montt (1000 kms to the south) in order to study there.
But Santiago is not Chile. I’m not saying other cities are a paradise of equality and fraternity, and I can’t speak on behalf of all of them, but classism here is practically minimal when compared with what happens in Santiago. It has a lot to do with the sizes of the cities because “small” cities are more mixed and homogenous; This is explained by the fact that in these places there is still one town square, one or two shopping centers (although lately “stripcenters” have been popping out in many places in Puerto Montt), one football stadium, or the fact that you see always the same people on the downtown, stores and supermarkets, upper class or not.
I’d even say that the classism you can see in nearby cities such as Puerto Varas or Frutillar is imported by upper class santiaguinos who come here dreaming with living “the magic of the south”, with the accelerated rhythm and arrogance characteristic of their social condition, the same that you can find in places such as Providencia, Las Condes or Vitacura, and that you describe in your column.
Of course classism exists in other parts of Chile, but after living in Santiago for six years, coming back to the south was for me like coming back from abroad.
Kind regards.
Thanks for commenting! I haven’t lived outside of Santiago, but I have traveled significantly and stayed in the north for 2-3 weeks at a time. I agree its less common in regions than in santiago, but it still happens and quite frequently. I’ll also challenge you on Frutillar…my understanding is that it was founded by german immigrants and they didn’t let people from frutillar alto down to the beach until the late 80s or early 90s. I could be wrong and it might have been people from santiago, but I don’t think so.
Well, it’s interesting what’s ocurring in lago Llanquihue.
Look what Jaime Said, head of the Said Group and owner of Patagonia Virgin project, said about Frutillar just six months ago:
http://impresa.lasegunda.com/2015/06/12/A/fullpage#slider-23
Today Puerto Varas is full “colonized” by afuerinos, mostly from Santiago. This started about 15-20 years ago with the booming salmon industry. Lots of afuerinos came to the region: the blue collar workers to cities such as Puerto Montt and Quellón, and the managers (santiaguinos) to Puerto Varas.Today Puerto Varas is a city made for the outsider, the santiaguino, who wants to live the “magic of the south”. Its a very different city even from just 10 years ago, before the crash of the salmon industry. Frutillar was heading in the same direction, but 4 or 5 years ago Frutillar Bajo was declared “zona típica”, to protect it from invasive real estate projects and developers. (as was Puerto Octay, a very small and wonderful city also founded by german inmigrants, and still “unknown”, that in 15-20 years will be in fashion as today is Frutillar). Perhaps it was another kind of classism back then (im just 27 yo), but today the same upper class santiaguinos you see in social pages of El Mercurio you can spot them, for example, in Teatro del Lago.
Kind regards.
I think this post have some valid points, i agreed with almost every things. Except the part where Nathan says: “Note: I think the best thing someone from the US can do is to leave for a few years too, but if a US citizen doesn’t leave, the downside is much less than if a Chilean never leaves.”
Maybe that paragraph is the one that make people feel insulted, because, is an affirmation about US been better than Chile, because Chileans need more than US. Citizen t go abroad. That’s not true, every one will be a better person, will understand better is culture pros and cons when he live in another country, i think is equally true for Chileans and for US Citizen (Or Colombians, Or Germans, Or Japanese, ETC).
And another point notice is: all the chileans that comment (or at least more than 60%) here claim to be a from the “elite” class, the question is why nobody in the “not elite class” see comment here? They don’t have internet? they are no in the entrepreneurs groups on facebook? the don’t speak English? if the reason is 1 of those, there you go, maybe is real the racism and exclusion problem (in one way or another).
Not sure if you saw the note to the note that explains why I think this:
Edit to add: December 14th. This post went very viral and I’ve said this in the comments probably 20 times, so I’m adding this here. The biggest misinterpretation of this post in the last line, the note. Many are taking it to mean that I think the US is better than Chile. I’m not saying that at all. My entire point is that the US is much bigger, has more immigration, more tourism, more universities where you leave your comfort zone, different kinds of people in different cities so that your chance of meeting someone different from you is higher if you never leave the US compared to someone who never leaves Chile.
I think the spanish speaking readers got taking in by the multiple (poorly done) translations on bio bio, el mostrador, el dinamo, social media and others. that’s why you’re not getting many spanish comments on the original. if you look there, there’s tons of reactions from all social classes, most supporting the ideas in the post, others hating on it.
As i said before, i’m totally agree with the point in this blog post, but what i said was a recommendation. I wasn’t trying to give you a bad review. Only i think that information don’t help in nothing to the point. When you got to that part of reading, you already make your opinion clear (and very well argumented), that information only work to confuse or for been in misunderstood. I don’t know if you get my point.
And know about the spanish speaking readers and why they are not all here. If all the middle class or lower class respond in the translated post, maybe if because they can’t read English and I think that is a problem or worse they know how to speak english and they don’t want to do it, if that is the case they really need to go abroad and open their minds. If the case is they can’t read English they gave a problem: the education that give the opportunity to speak, read or write English is not sufficiently Democratised. That is my only point there and maybe is totally false (i don’t really know the chilean education)
And i most say, in my country the problem with the not Democratised education is really bad. Depends on how expensive is your school and in what city you live. In general the capital is so much better (subject: English learning, not other subjects about education). In fact my english sucks (because i’m not for the capital of my country) and neither i’m from a wealthy family.
Again, great article i love the point of view of the article and i agree, is always better go and learn a little about other cultures, other problems, other type problems, other solutions to problems and where we see problem where don’t exist (maybe).
I’ve recently read this post and Daniela’s comment, and I really think this post is from somebody that wasn’t in Chile so many years, or maybe you left the country too early, I’m 19 years old, and i’m more agree with her than i’m with you, not offense, but your point of view is really superficial, who cares if by the color of your skin you are more attractive in US or Europe, that doesn’t matter. (or it might be your curious fact)
I do wanna leave the country, but not for how clasist it is, otherwise for the opportunities, but not because i can’t reach them here by my skin color, or my money, just because out there are more advanced, the racism here it is more for our neighbors in Latin America and, i’m not agree with that either, it is shameful.
About the day in day interaction i really think i’m going to miss the hug and kiss in the cheek every morning, people here are so warmer , and by the learning of being independent, yes it might be true, but since high class to medium or lower class, practically all of them are so dependent of their families, it is so strange that a young boy or girl want to leave the house at the age of 18 or 20 because the family won’t allow it, and that is a thing of culture, that i think it should change, but for that, salaries must be higher than they’re now.
One time i heard that Chileans thinks in little and that really change when you leave the country, but about the other things you said, I disagree.
Valeria, thanks for commenting. I’ve been in Chile 5+ years and am still here. I don’t know anything about you, but I think you’re being bit naive about where the lack of opportunities come from. I think it comes from massive classism starting from right when the spanish first arrived and started “settling” the country.
I miss the kiss on the cheek when I leave Chile too, it’s one of the many things that other countries could learn from Chile. But that doesn’t mean that the rest of the comments don’t stand on their own.
Puke. Puke. Puke. Puke. What is it about your article that people love so much? Isn’t it applicable to all countries and travellers in general? Isn’t that the purpose of all travellers? And wouldn’t the World b doing much better if every body just stayed where they come from? What a pile of useless information coming from an upper classer destined for upper classers who ever left home and feel so proud they ever did. Puke again!
I don’t agree with your comment at all and really the only interesting thing you’ve brought up is the idea that people should stay where they’re from. Can you expand on that? That’s a unique viewpoint that I haven’t heard yet.
As to the rest of your comment, people like the article because it talked about chilean social issues that the vast majority seem to already understand, but don’t really talk about much in the open. The rest of your comment doesn’t make much sense at all. Of course travel advice is applicable to people from all countries, but Chileans, since they’re isolated geographically and physically and are a small country that previously didn’t have much tourism or travel outside of the country, really could use it. Also, I live in Chile, so that’s why I wrote about it, I’m not sure your connection to Chile…
The comment about “upper classers” feeling good about traveling doesn’t fit either, if you look at anything else I’ve written. The main thesis is that Chileans should travel to open their minds to other possibilities so that they can make their country better when they come back. What’s controversial about that?
I’ve lived in SouthAmerica for years and spent several months living and travelling in Chile. I think it’s one of the richest countries in the world in many many ways. Why do you think they should travel in order to come back and make their country ‘better’?
I agree, Chile’s a great country. That’s why I live here. But not country’s perfect. Some countries do some things better than others. Chile’s no exception.
If people leave, they’ll think about things that can make chile better, like improving the pretty horrendous customer service, trusting people, getting out of the provincial, limiting mindset that many people have, not to mention seeing what a society that doesn’t have chile’s pervasive classism looks like. They should also see what things Chile has that are better than other places.
For example, most chileans complain about the metro and bus system constantly. But when they travel, they’ll find its better than nearly all metro and bus systems in the US and many other developed countries. That’s the entire point. It’s pretty simple.
I love Scotland and my life change. Is hard to escape from Chile if you are normal guy.
First I got the language to communicate with the world “English”
2°= I was trying hard to get a job as a barman in any cruise company, I have been working in two and I put my footprint in 130 cities and 34 nations.
3° I meet my wife working there and now I’m living in Scotland, where the Education is free, healthy is free, pension are decent and there are many tools to help you to reach your potential.
Chile….. Mmmm maybe for hollydays… After all, there are still people who I love.
There is not such thing as an average Chilean. AFTER ALL, Chile is the tallest country in the World. Its the same than to say than the californians are the same than the texans or the newyorkers. For example, the people from the north (desert), south (forest), middle (countryside) and Santiago (capital).
SANTIAGO IS NOT CHILE
Anyways, i prefer a classist system than a racist system. If you are poor then you can build yourself and reach a proper status in the society. Instead, in a racist system, “sudacas” or “Hispanic” will be condemned to be one forever.
Also, Chileans go out simply because the monetary conversion, nothing more.
Europe is something different than the whole America :If you are a professional, then your social status is pretty much the same than if you are a non qualified worker. Some (lazy people) decide to stick with lousy works just because its easy than to spend years in the University. Europe is paternalist and its sponsor lazy people.
I really like your article, it is typically gringo in the sense that you say what you think, period, no second guesses, no political agenda, not a view of the world, just a recommendation: go out and see.
I cannot agree more. I have lived in different countries and I know exactly what you mean. You get to know people who live in a very different kind of society. For example: Have you seen people who work driving buses being very nice with each other and really enjoying their work? Everyone is like that in the US. Even people who work delivering post mail. It feels so weird at first, but then you realize everyone is like that in the US. Their jobs are easy and they feel at ease at them. Everyone is like that in the US.
I find your analysis very shallow though. One thing is the way things are right now, but you need to understand how it came to be this way. White people in Chile? They came from Europe, Europe being poor at the time because of all the wars, these people arrived with one hand in front and the other in their behind. In other words, naked or without any money. The only way they had to make money was to work and save, create their own companies and get out of poverty.
Then why do they reject manual labor? Europeans who arrived to Chile had a much better education, obviously. If they chose to do manual labor they became poor, so through a selection process, they all got rid of the manual labor, which most chileans still prefer… because basically their parents chose the same… and since there was so much slavery in Chile, the price of manual labor has always been rather poor.
In case you wonder, this was the same inthe US before WW2… because in order to prepare for WW2, the US adopted the Keynesian economic model. So don’t you fool yourself. What happens in Chile has happened everywhere in the world, it is not like Chile has other laws of physics or anything like that. In other words, what is happening in Chile happened in the US during the great depression.
When you arrive to Chile from the US, the first thing that shocks you is how ugly and angry look people inside the Metro subway. Why are chileans always angry?
In Chile is you laugh too much you are either an idiot or you are upper class and nothing to worry about or maybe both.
About being white, americans consider that only 1% of the people in Chile are white, according to the CIA website. And people in the US think there are 10 levels of white… Consider that most people in Chile think they are white, no matter what skin color they have. So shockingly you might think you are white but when you get in the US people might think differently. I saw some girls who were so white that they looked like they had no blood in their body… and believe me, I like, I love white women, but I cannot find a girl so white as a white shirt being attractive… at least not at first… unless they prove they are human…
I mean, one thing is a Hawaiian Closet… another thing is skin that doesn’t even look like skin…
Doing manual work? Well, that is how all the developed countries became developed… All americans have a tendency to do manual work themselves… and that contradicts our own culture, because we have slaves to do that… believe it or not… wanna change that? Good luck with that. President Ricardo Lagos prohibited free labor of children at supermarkets in 2000, you know, the people who pack your groceries at your local supermarket, because to people who arrive from other parts of the world that single event looks like Indian children making Nike snickers for penies… which is criticized as being modern slavery… and we have our local equivalent in supermarkets…
All of this is a shame, only because you have lived in Chile for too long you think this is normal… children working for free… “tu propina es mi sueldo”… you have to be kidding me…. No developed country would tolerate that… Why don’t you put a chain around their neck to make it more clear that they are slaves?
What happened the the prohibition?
Supermarkets threatened to close down. The president didn’t even try to push it.
Can you believe it?
I don’t imagine that happening in the US? Probably Obama would put the CEO of each supermarket in jail and put a pair of soldiers at each supermarket with orders to shoot anyone who tried to close the supermarket, and for that reason the supermarkets would never close, they would work 24×7.
Only in Chile a supermarket CEO dares to challenge the president, as if the president was powerless against a corrupt CEO.
I’m not advocating in any way Lagos presidency, but guys, go out, see the world, the times have changed, chilean society is living in the middle ages, it is not good for the people who do the work and it is not good for the people who do basically nothing, except occupy useful space in unuseful manners.
And you think you are so beautiful? Go to Europe and learn that you are as ugly as fuck. Any European girl beats the most beautiful girl in Chile. I’m sorry to say that. Not only they are more beautiful, they are more intelligent, better educated, they also are more horny and less worried to be seen as a whore too. They live their sexuality, really. Most latin americans think that living their sexuality means cheating on their boyfriends or husbands, and while it can be better than doing nothing, most latin american women are at least 200 years behind when it comes to sex. I’m sorry to say this but chilean women are boring in bed, they almost never take the initiative, and kinky? Not even in your dreams, girl.
No amount of cheating is going to get you out on the dark place you live in. You need to experience real orgasms. I’m just saying. European women don’t have fear of experiences and they really enjoy life. You are not going to learn that by having sex with chileans, or other latin americans.
Work is different, life is different, even politics is different, you can learn a lot while abroad.
Hello,
I really like this column and above all the discussions on the posts 🙂
I read your post and I would like to know why do you mention only girls are more attractive or fun? how about guys feeling their self esteem threaten when they find a girl who can enjoy her sexuality and treat her like a whore? This works on both sides…In spite of this, I dont know what kind of girl you have dated, but my feyoncee is European and all of his friends just love latin girls precisely because they think we are “warmer”. I am very sorry you ran into boring, uneducated and middle age latin girls…maybe you have a bad taste…but as it seems you have travelled a lot, then you should try to have more experiences with nowadays type of Chilean, Colombian or Brazilians… 🙂
Hello Paulina,
I don’t know about that… because no guy has ever told me I’m a whore… hahahaha… sorry, but I’m not a girl, so I don’t know, unfortunately women ususally enjoy sex and they they ask you if you feel ok about them enjoying sex… and that question is weird for the reasons you mention… why a girl would have to give excuses for enjoying sex? Weird.
Yes, latinas are warmer when you talk to them, they are more like the kind of girls who like contact, they touch your arms, your hands, your legs, even spanish women do that (they are also latin people, spain, france, italy)…
In bed of course things are the opposite, women from northern europe are a lot more explosive… well, it depends on the particular person, but in general, women from northern europe are not afraid to “take you” and “ride you” like a wild animal… all your tension from work just dissapears… 😉
Women are boring… at least that’s what I’ve found out… when you do them everyday… at least at a certain age their sex impulse is diminished… they claim the contrary, but that hasn’t been my experience… younger girls have a huge sexual drive and a lot of energy… they can kill you… literally…
Did I say uneducated? I don’t remember that.
Middle age? Well some of them are… And it has been a major dissapointment.
Latin girls? I live in Chile, its hard to find women from northern europe in here.
Bad taste? Yeah, it is hard to guess how the girl feels before well… you do them… some are really nice… but well I don’t know if this is the right place to explain myself… Is this blog for mature people or kids can see it too?… Maybe we could grab a couple of beers 😉
Brazilians… I don’t like… Too petite bodies, and I really like long legs. Besides, having too big booties means you need at least 5 more cm to reach bottom, if you know what I mean… Not my taste really.
Chileans, well that is like always… the problem I just described.
Colombians… they are not much different from Chilean girls… maybe a little bit hornier… bigger buttocks… more willing to follow direcctions… hahahaha… I cannot believe I’m telling this… also they prefer to call you “usted” rather than “tu”… even while you are doing them… that feels very weird… and kinky… like we don’t know each other… a major turn on, they simply never have confidence with you, even if they get mad at you, they treat you with respect… like if they were from another century…
And chilean and colombian girls are the most unfaithful in latin america… I don’t know where I read that… Argentinian girls were the most faithful, so the most beautiful are the most faithful… that matches my experience, when women feel less attractive they need to be unfaithful because the “other guy” will make them feel attractive… weird, isn’t it?
People in Chile think it is the other way around. They prefer the uglier ones because they think they will be the most faithful… but it is the other way around… beautiful women must feel really lonely…
You are spot on in everything you wrote.
I would add that from a woman’s perspective your opportunities are also improved by leaving. Chile’s society is not only classist but also very backwards thinking about male and female roles. That could give you material for a whole new blog post. I would also add that classism and discrimination occur at all levels, non-elite Chileans also regard other Chileans with fewer means or non-white as beneath them. There is also passive aggressiveness towards anyone or anything different, the main survival guide would be to keep your head down and blend into the crowd or just leave as you say.
I guess these are the traits of most less developed societies, by that I mean there is nothing really novel about the unpleasant details and/or huge obstacles of Chilean society. The amazing thing is how some societies have been able to grow and move towards better and fairer ways of treating each other.
I do think it’s refreshing that someone speaks out and points to the elephant in the room.
I really enjoyed reading your blog post.
Hi Andrea,
Thanks for writing!
Brilliant. Absolutely Brilliant! (This, for instance is most perceptive: “… not to always be able to rely on their parents getting them out of jams well into their 20s…” – although I’d add “well into their early forties…”)
Interesting article. However some links or suggestions would be appreciated. An opinion piece is good, but it is like telling a bum to get a job. Some technical information would be more effective. IE which countries offer which working visas and how to apply, considerations, restrictions, etc.
Thanks, though. I hope it inspires some people.
Dear Nathan, you are naive. I am a chilean and live in Paris, France and it is very difficult here to make a decent living. It is most expensive and not many decent jobs either. 30.000.- people living on the streets. Europe isn’t heaven on earth. Probably you came as a tourist.
I never said it was easy and I most certainly didn’t say it was heaven on earth. But a Chilean who lives abroad in Europe for a year or two will come back to Chile much better than if they stay in the chilean bubble!
I would gladly move out of this hell hole that is Chile….. anyone want to give me a job abroad?? I’d take it in a second…. I have many skills, fully bilingual and have work permits for Europe and US!
Nathan, I agree with you. Leaving your own country is always a great oportunity to learn about life. Concerning your statement about the “chilean” (generalized) point of view about gringos/blondes you are saying exactly what I feel. Every day I am trying to teach my chilean friends that being blonde is nothing special.
Now there is one thing I would like to add to your advice. After recognizing all the stuff that Nathan mentioned, please my lovely Chilean, return to your country! Bring your open-minded view with you, teach it to your friends and family and form Chile as you want it! I know that this is quite hard due to the actual political and economic situation, but it’s not impossible 😉 (Real) Democracy is hard work of each citizen.
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Nathan, estoy de acuerdo. Irse de su país, siempre es una gran oportunidad de aprender de la vida. Hablando del punto de vista “chileno” (generalizado) de gringos, estás deciendo exactamente lo que yo pienso. Cada día trato de enseñar a mis amigos chilenos que ser rubio no es nada especial.
Ahora quisiera añadir algo a tu consejo. Después de darse cuenta de todo lo que dijo Nathan, por favor mi querido chileno, vuelve a tu país! Trae tu pensamiento abierto, enseñalo a tus amigos y a tu familia y lo más importante da forma a Chile cómo tú lo quieras! Yo sé que con respecto a la situación actual de la política y economía de este país, es muy dificil, pero no es imposible 😉 La democracia es el trabajo de cada uno.
Thanks for commenting Nadine!
Lo siento pero estoy muy en desacuerdo y que se hizo una comparacion odiosa como todas las comparaciones.Pienso que el articulo afirma como hechos cosas sin ningun argumento solido ni fuentes para verificar… se lee mas como la experiencia de alguien que hablo con un par de personas e hizo un juicio apresurado. Puedo ver en los.comentarios la contradiccion del autor, ya que no ha sabido aceptar a quienes comentan con diferente punto de vista pero felicita a quienes piensan como el. ¿no hablas de decir las cosas y respetar otros puntos de vista? Creo que las afirmaciones aqui vertidas son muy ingenuas y provocativas, pues no creo q a nadie le guste que venga alguien de afuera a decirte como debes hacer las cosas. No puedes decirle a alguien con una casa pobre que debiera algun dia pasar tiempo en una casa de ricos y asi comprendera la vida. Chile, Eeuu y Europa todos tienen altos y bajos y podrismos hacer una larga lista. Creo que al autor le falto humildad y conocer mejor antes de dar afirmaciones tan categoricas y con escasos fundsmentos. Vivo en Valparaiso, tengo 36 años, he vivido en Europa y lo que Nathan describe de Chile se puede ver en todo el mundo y no puedes generalizar de manera tan liviana pues quedas como ignorante aunque quizas no lo seas.
Even though I agree with some of the premises of the column, namely, the historical tendency of our elite class to think and act as if they were superior by some divine intervention, I’m not so sure about the possibilities for success that an immigrant can have in the US or any other developed country. Yes, it’s true that traveling and getting in touch with different cultures broadens someone’s perception of the world if and only if that person is willing to accept those differences. It’s also true that some Chileans have gone to live abroad and succeeded in getting a better life, at least in material terms. But let’s be honest. Even though merit is much more appreciated in the US than in Chile, an immigrant has to work three times more to get what a local can get there. In that sense, the US is not much different from Chile when it comes to treating latino immigrants or people from African-American origin. Crime rates in the US double or triple when the offenders belong to those ethnic groups, and life expectancy for them is significantly lower. You may argue that those facts do not contradict the idea that some Chileans would do well in going abroad and seeing the world, but it makes me wonder what success really means to you.
Its seems very interesting and realistic the vision presented in the article The Best
Thing a Chilean Can Do is to Leave Chile (by Nathan Lustig). I’ve been several
decades out of Chile, in the first and third world countries. Immediately comes
to my mind an article, which, around forty years ago, was published in
Scientific American, whose title was something like: “Systems for sale:
the way of life comes free”. The paper analyzed the IBM strategy, who was
the leading seller of computers, and that, along with the systems, included
seminars and periods of training at its facilities, in the United States. Who
attended those courses or internships, returned imbued with the way of life and
with the first world technology system. But, on his return, they faced shortage
of laboratory equipment and media, and instead of creating them, asked to import
the equivalents to the ones who have had the opportunity to use and view abroad.
This phenomenon occurred in the Faculty of Physical and Mathematical Sciences of the
University of Chile, in the golden age of the scientific research of that
entity. In that period, we had important and diverse sources of funding, from
own resources, projects financed by Concyt, the “copper Law”, international
organizations, multinational banking and some “grants” of foreign institutions.
During the dictatorship the universities became commercial systems with
“factories” producing professionals, and leading to the dark ages of
scientific research. Although slowly, little by little, the light is arriving
to the research laboratories…
I agree with perceptions that, in our idiosyncrasy and cultural background, there are
many components that limit the invention, innovation and creativity… We are afraid
to fly alone or to fly at high altitude! These same limitations exist in
governmental and institutional areas, so it is very difficult to justify any research
coming out of the ordinary. There is no space for the necessary opportunity to
failed experiences, which may also be important results.
We have a country with one of the world’s highest levels of seismic, and we should be
leaders in seismic research and seismic engineering, but we are left behind,
and very little has been achieved, due to the lack of official support.
There is a fundamental equation:
RISK = f (Vulnerability x Hazard x Ignorance Factor)
In this relationship, to reduce the risk, we only have a chance of changing two factors:
the Vulnerability and Ignorance Factor, since the Hazard
is something intrinsic to nature. We can improve Vulnerability, with best seismic design codes and quality of
construction. The Ignorance Factor can only be reduced with
research programs fitted to our needs. Research and vulnerability reduction are
fundamental to prevention. In economic variables, prevention is an investment, but
what has had to be spent on rebuilding and repair damage from the earthquakes, constitute
a truly expenses, which, many times, are so big that, they can dislocate the country’s
economy.
I bet you knew how much people were gonna hate on this before publishing. Chilean people act this way about everything that says different from what they think, or perceive I guess. They hate it. Chileans get so annoyingly uncomfortable when there’s something different from them. I see all that passive-agressiveness as a defense mechanism from something greater, but that’s something else.
My name is Diego, I’m 26. I was born in Chile to a not very wealthy immigrant family from the United Kingdom which made me feel a little more familiar with gringo culture; their language mainly, for obvious reasons. This has caused me a lot of trouble along the way because every time my ancestry shows up, I get the strangest classist bullshit. Like, we are far from being rich, I’m far from being rich at the moment and it’s sick how I look into the eyes of the people judging me for speaking a different language than them, I’m not feeling ashamed.
Anyways, at the age of 18, I decided I needed to move out of the country because my teenage angst was pushing too far. I got myself a job as a teacher’s assistant, started saving money and did everything I could do to just go. Few months after it was me and a couple pieces of luggage moving to the United States. All. by. myself. I wasn’t really happy about the destination in the beginning but I was willing to make the most of it. I stayed there for a year.
During my year abroad, I not only had a job but I was also studying. So by the age of 19, I already had 5 other roommates from 5 other different countries, I had coworkers, I had classmates, I had bills to pay, I had a SSN, I was paying taxes, I had a boyfriend from Ohio (I know)… Everything I was doing, I could’ve never done it at my mom’s house back in Downtown Santiago, despite how much I could’ve liked it (I didn’t) or how much love I felt for my native country, which is still a lot.
Doing this at a very early age helped me not only to see what I wasn’t seeing from the cultural, moral, and classistic settings of Chile, but to learn from the gringo ways of working, mainly. Very punctual, with really high standards, procedures, respect, acceptance, diversity. I could keep going. It made me become more mature and responsible because there was no one else who was going to do anything for me but myself. Going to college it was so different too. I took a diploma at a Community College and it was so much more difficult than anything I had ever studied back in Chile. I had really smart classmates. It was tough.
Nonetheless, one of the most important thing I learnt living abroad was from a Chilean. I was working at Disney World, in Orlando. This thing called International College Program where some other students from my college back in Chile had applied. Among them, there was this guy from La Serena. We had had classes together, friends in common and other stuff, but he never really liked me. He has been one of the most opened homophobe I’ve ever met and he did not like me at all. Fair enough (?).
He never really spoke to me while we were in FL either. We even lived nearby, so I’d see him every once in a while and nothing. Somehow, out of the blue, at some point he started being more polite with me. Why? Because while I was having the time of my life, he was having the HELL OF A TIME because he felt so very discriminated. He refused to befriend gringos so he would only spend time with other Chileans or his roommates, all latino descent, so he would keep a spanish speaking household. He felt discriminated for the way he looked, his dark skin, his funny accent, his so very chilean passive-agressive sense of humor and most of all, for his inexistent will of understanding he had to leave all his social creeds and paradigms to be able to understand what was happening around him. Over all, living an experience far away from home is such a confusing stage in one’s life. Specially when you are as young as that. You have to come to this awakening to be able to process everything.
Way later on, we were back home the following year, he openly said it to my face. He was sorry for being a jerk to me and he would only notice when he felt people were being jerks to him.
And I felt so good. I might have been a little luckier because I could speak the language without an accent or because I have lighter colors on my skin, but there certainly is racism and discrimination and a bunch of other bad stuff galore up in the States, but I still believe one makes our own way into the adventure. I was sorry he had such a bad experience at the very same time I was having a blast, but I was glad he could bring home a much more important lesson than that.
I recently had a conversation with a friend about how common are among us young Chileans all these superficial, pretentious talks about what we own or what we just bought, the heinous Chilean chaqueteo, constant social and personal undervalue of others, bullying, arrogance and many other more sociopathic behavior under the smiley label of being ‘en buena onda’. We need to stop this. Somehow. As soon as possible. I absolutely agree with the statement, Chileans should go out there and explore. We have such a narrow minded society that won’t have any improvement unless we step out our comfort zone, unless we start thinking a little bigger.
I love this country and its beautiful landscapes, but us people need to get out of the frustration our society is kept in.
Kudos, Nathan, great article.
D.
Hi Diego, thanks for commenting and sharing your experience! Although many of the comments here are negative, about 85-90% of all feedback was very positive, there’s just a very vocal community that writes strongly against comments here.
This was deep, man. Still, isn’t it great that you can see the whole landscape in 360 degrees? that’s something to be proud of, forget the chaqueteo- most people in Chile don’t have these highly valuable type of skills.
keep moving forward.
Hey Carlos! I’m sorry I never replied to you.
Thank you! And yes, I’m like super glad I can, or could, at that time, have the moment of realization so crystal clear. I wish we could promote it to the rest, but oh well!
So tell me about you getting kicked out of school bc of your friends! How crazy that sounds.
🙂
Hello Nathan, I really like your post, it has so much truth in it and for what it worth i lived it , i come from a poor family and i always dreamed about going out my country to get to know better options, other reality, other cultures, and this year i could make it real I saved money for a entire year working Sunday to Sunday as a lot of Chileans people does and i make real also of course with my parents support they helped me in the way they could and being out this country showed me that we can get as much as the upper class people get of course working a bit harder than them but doesn’t mean that we cant. Even tho It’s true that being US citizen or an European does much easier to travel and stay in some countries I never felt offended with this, actually I felt encourage to keep trying to go abroad again for longer time. I stayed in Switzerland for 2 month and a half and 17 days in Turkey , in Switzerland I met lovely people that helped me there and showed me part of how they live, how they work they got where they are , was so awesome, so enriching experience that i could never regret to have gone there and in Turkey was just lovely people so nice and polite warm as if i was not from abroad. I like my country and my Culture I am so proud of talk Spanish and happy to have being born in here because i can see two different worlds, speak two wonderful languages and because of that get to help people, one of my friend in Switzerland is learning Spanish and i feel really happy that i can help her with it, all this is possible because both of us speak English or my Turkish friend that we are connected by a language is neither of us native one . So thank you for take your time to write this to show our reality from an outside view, not wrong or not right just different from our own view . So It’s True the best that a Chilean can do it is going out of Chile.
Bang! spot on, nice one
Lo mejor cosa que puede hacer un estadounidense es irse de los Estados Unidos.
He vivido más de cinco año en la zona metropolitana de Washington DC, en los Estados Unidos y considero que este tiempo ha sido más que suficiente para convencerme de que lo mejor que puede hacer alguien nacido en este país, sea de la condición racial que sea, es dejar los Estados Unidos.
Un estadounidense fuera de los Estados Unidos, por un año o dos al menos, aprendería que América es un continente dividido en Norte, Centro y Sudamérica y no es el nombre de su país. Aprendería que su nacionalidad es estadounidense y no “American”. Aprendería que hablar un solo idioma no es lo usual, al menos en países “desarrollados”, que la gente educada en todos estos países habla al menos dos idiomas y que un estadounidense no puede esperar que todo el mundo hable inglés sólo para satisfacer su orgullo estadounidense.
Un estadounidense debería plantearse siempre salir al menos un año e ir a otros países del mundo para darse cuenta que la forma derrochadora de vivir sus vidas no es lo usual, que la mayor parte de la población del mundo vive con mucho menos de lo necesario, que se mueve en transporte público y que no cuenta con el dinero necesario para comprar, comprar y consumir cada mes, al estilo estadounidense.
Un estadounidense viviendo al menos un año en algún país de América Latina, se daría cuenta que a pesar de que los problemas de clase y raciales son fuertes e inminentes, la gente convive, la gente solidariza y no existe ninguna institución que esté preocupada de clasificarte según tu color de piel. Un estadounidense en algún país de América Latina vería que en las escuelas, al menos en las públicas, conviven mestizos, indígenas, asiáticos, negros y blancos (estos últimos una minoría), pero que tales categorías ni siquiera existen para la gente. Un estadounidense vería que en las escuelas los niños ríen, juegan, toman su tiempo libre y pueden recrearse viendo la luz del sol y no están encerrados en oscuras salas de clases, sin recreo, sin un grupo permanente de compañeros de todos los días al que puedan considerar sus amigos.
Un estadounidense en América latina vería que sí, efectivamente, existen terribles diferencias de clase, pero que hay un grupo permanente de gente, principalmente de jóvenes, luchando, saliendo a las calles para pelear por sus derechos y para cambiar las cosas. Vería que los ricos mayoritariamente van a escuelas privadas y todos los demás a escuelas públicas, pero que muchos países entienden que eso debería cambiar. Un estadounidense aprendería que es posible y necesario protestar, que es posible salir a las calles a manifestarse y gritar por defender los derechos. Un estadounidense aprendería a no conformarse y a desarrollar una mentalidad crítica, a pensar, a ver más allá del panorama ficticio en el que ellos han crecido, aceptando la desigualdad de brazos cruzados y pensando que viven en el mejor país del mundo.
Un estadounidense viviendo un tiempo fuera de su país aprendería que no todo el mundo necesita y debe portar un arma de fuego, aprendería que las armas son peligrosas y que no todo el mundo busca hacer justicia por sus propias manos. Aprendería también que fuera de los Estados Unidos, las familias no preparan a sus jóvenes para ir a la guerra, que las diferencias se resuelven en los tribunales de justicia (locales, nacionales e internacionales) y no en el campo de batalla o utilizando los últimos avances de la tecnología para destruir a otros países y a su gente.
Un estadounidense fuera de los Estados Unidos aprendería que la gente pobre no debe morir porque el Estado no le provee un adecuado sistema de salud, aprendería que el seguro de salud es un derecho universal, con diferencias claro está porque como en todo persisten las diferencias sociales, pero al menos la gran mayoría puede acceder a los beneficios de un programa de salud, el cual en Estados Unidos sólo está destinado a la clase más adinerada. Un estadounidense que saliera de su país podría aprender que las embarazadas tienen derechos pre y postnatales que les permiten contar con días libres pagados para prepararse para el parto y para estar con su hijo después del nacimiento. Aprendería que Estados Unidos es el único país desarrollado en el mundo donde el derecho a la salud es un privilegio exclusivo para quienes pueden pagar los costos millonarios de los planes de salud y los desorbitantes precios de los medicamentos.
Un estadounidense debería vivir un tiempo fuera de los Estados Unidos, ojalá en un país de América Latina, para conocer la felicidad, para aprender a reír y a no tomarse la vida como una permanente competencia, algo que nunca acaba. Aprendería que el dinero no hace la felicidad, que hay mucha gente pobre que vive feliz a pesar de no tranzar en la bolsa de comercio, a pesar de no haber ido nunca a la Universidad, a pesar de no poder cambiar de automóvil cada dos años. Aprendería que no hacer dinero hasta hacerse cada vez más rico no es sinónimo de “perdedor”. Aprendería que le gente en otros países no contrata seguros de vida para luego asesinar y buscar beneficiarse de quienes te amaban.
Desde mi punto de vista, lo mejor que puede hacer un estadounidense, sea de la condición social y racial que sea, es viajar el tiempo que sea necesario fuera de los Estados Unidos para aprender que en el mundo hay cientos de países y miles de ciudades, muchas de ellas más grandes que Nueva York, Los Ángeles o Chicago, que en el mundo se hablan cientos de idiomas, que los países ricos son una minoría, que no todos los países viven o quieren hacer la guerra, que los terroristas son una minoría, que los inmigrantes no sólo quieren emigrar a los Estados Unidos, que no todo el mundo come comida chatarra y que el fútbol, sí el fútbol, es el deporte más apasionante del mundo, pero no el estadounidense.
I am from Chile, y estas palabras anotadas acá dicen lo que piensa un Chileno, y dice todo lo que pienso acerca de conocer y viajar, creces de una manera increíble. Pero cuesta demasiado.
Curious, but I had a sad experience as a chilean… so much times I have been discriminated due my european surname; specially in the school where I received bullying for be “foreign”, but that doesn’t mean that I have felt less for that. Anyway, to have an european origin is not any advantages in the chilean middle class, exactly for the same: because people believe that we have a better situation than others only for be chilean-european, and that was translated into less oportunities (at least in the case of my family). Now I only want to get a real job in Europe and to forget Chile for some years.
What an accurate article. Impressive. God job, Nathan. I would say that our classism is worse than any form of racism. It is just aberrant.
A lot of what you say about Chileans is true. However, allow me to look at your points in detail. Just so you know where I am coming from…. I was born in Chile but came to the US to study at a time in which buses, bathrooms, schools etc, etc, etc were still segregated and lynchings still persisted in the South. It was not in the 30’s.. it was in the mid 60’s. I was even asked by ignorant people if we wore feathers in Santiago. I came to Berkeley to study and lived through the protests of the war in Viet Nam, the Civil Rights Movement and the start of the Women’s movement. The US was one of the most narrow and provincial countries in the world at the time, in spite of it being the major world power. All this turmoil brought it out of its stupor. So no doubt we have come a long ways since then…However, it would be naive to think that racism in its worst form doesn’t persist. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. One of the most liberal parts of the country yet you see it every day and we all know that it’s open season on Black males in many parts of the country and it’s only getting worse.
1. Would Chileans benefit from leaving Chile and expanding their horizons? Absolutely! as would anyone else from any country because there are no countries without some form of
division or prejudice. Only a few countries in the world can claim to have enough equality in their land that their poorer citizens would not benefit from leaving. They are mostly in Northern
Europe and Japan.
2. The opportunity afforded to immigrants in the “advanced” countries you mention comes with a price tag. If you are talking about middle or upper class travelers, unless they have a very
unique skill, they will not be allowed to work. Only those that come to work in menial jobs no native wants for the pay may be allowed to. Then they endure prejudice and live in horrid
living conditions because the pay that looked so good from their country doesn’t go far here. Will an upper class American girl date and marry an illiterate “wetback”? No, she won’t and
her family will definitely not allow it without disowning her. I can’t imagine this immigrant’s self esteem going up under such circumstances….not that different from back home.
3. Upper class Chileans don’t interact with non upper class Chileans… very true yet not unique. I live in Saratoga, Ca. An upper class neighborhood in Silicon Valley. When neighbors
went away for a year, they asked their Mexican gardener to watch their house and care for it while living in it. This was an old retired couple, cultured and international in their values.
Living proof that traveling expands the mind as you say. The gardener’s daughter went to the local Saratoga public school with my daughters. Since they spoke Spanish, they
became friends. No one else spoke it… She was harassed to the point the girl almost had a nervous breakdown and the father decided to drive her every day back to her East San Jose
school… quite a distance. An Egyptian boy was harassed to the point that the parents placed him in a private school. This was in the 90’s before the real prejudice against Middle
Easterners really started. There was one Black family living in Saratoga at the time. The father was a doctor. They were accepted and those families that claimed them their friends
made a point of it as if to show they were not prejudiced.. Their token Black friend, as in the movies.
So… is this a Chilean problem? or is Classism and prejudice a universal problem? We don’t see it so much in the US for the reason you mention in your Dec. 14th edit. The country is
so big and the population so large that most Americans don’t rub shoulders with the elite. They live mostly among their own class so class conflict is not obvious
4. “Leaving Chile will allow Chileans to see a society where service is excellent, people trust each other and are generally nice to each other in day-to-day interactions.”
I agree with you on this one. Service in the US is excellent and very friendly. Employees that deal with the public need to be polite and provide excellent service.
If not, you are free to contact the manager who will set the employee straight. It is one of the benefits of living in a country where business is conducted in a professional manner.
I really don’t care if it is genuine or not. The end result is a pleasant experience and interaction. Few countries in the world can claim this. It makes life easier and less
problematic.
5. ” They can see that being passive aggressive isn’t the route to success.
That asking for things directly is probably the best way to get what
they want. That saying no to things they don’t
want is much easier than
saying yes to everything when they really mean no. ”
I agree again. Yet what is considered polite in one country might be considered stupid in another. On the reverse side, what is considered direct in one country,
might be considered rude in another. My aunt had traveled to the US before I came here. Her advice was to brace myself because Americans had no manners and were rude.
It has been after living here for so long that I have come to appreciate the value of that directness and that it is not always rude. These are just cultural differences that don’t mean much.
6. “They learn to be more independent ” I am afraid this is again a universal problem. Some of the children of the elite are spoiled throughout the world yet others excel because this is
highly valued among the upper classes everywhere in the world. Most do both, they are spoiled and excel. They can afford both.
What you say about Chilean society is the absolute truth. No one can deny that but one needs to look at one’s own country and society… both the negative and the positive and not be afraid to point out the negative.. even dwell on it because it is by doing this that we can make it better.
I believe had you not compared Chile with the US and other “well developed countries” as you put it (which I also found offensive as many here did… not necessarily as a Chilean but as a human being) and come up with the US being this amazing country where diversity is celebrated and spread throughout the land in this idyllic vision in which the color of your skin, your social class , your race and ethnic background along with your hair color don’t matter and everyone is polite and nice. you would have succeeded at pointing out Chileans’ Classism and prejudices as something detrimental and shameful.
By doing this unfortunate comparison, you just further polarized people and lost a good opportunity to show how this system looks from the outside.
I consider myself an American. I have lived here all my life.. married an American, my children are American and I became a US citizen many years ago. I want to see this country do well
and be fair. It hurts to see the direction it is taking in this century. We need to remain critical and not tolerate the injustices that are now taking place. Just like Chileans in Chile
need to do the same.
Nathan, I Totally agree with what you said 😉 excellent post
I wish this article was in Spanish too so I can send to those whom most need to read it. 🙂
it is…lots of places:
http://nathanlustig.wpengine.com/2015/11/26/lo-mejor-que-puede-hacer-un-chileno-es-salir-de-chile/
I think Chile should have never joined and signed all of these accords that now are forcing Chile to become a developed country. Chile should become developed on its own and whatever that entails. But what i see now is a country rushing to become a so called developed country while loosing its identity and become a mediocre country. What the US did from the 20’s and on wards in terms of quality if life can not. E imitated over night. Chileans do not derserve this and most certainly turist do not deserve this!
I loved your article, I’m Chilean and I lived in the US for three years while in my teen years which shaped my life so much. Once I returned to Chile because of my mom’s work I experienced a cultural shock because I wasn’t as judgmental anymore, I didn’t believe in the classist system the country has anymore. I studied in public school so I was able to make friends with people with very different realities than mine. I agree with your point a 100%.
Hi Nathan, interesting article. I think it’s always a great idea for everyone to leave their country to expand their perspective, and to realize how we are culturally and socially conditioned to think the world is a certain way, when it is not.
With that said, one comment that you made stuck out at me as you making the mistake that people need to change because they culturally do something you don’t understand. This is the paragraph:
“Both upper class and non upper class Chileans should leave Chile to see what it’s like to live in a society where service is excellent, people trust each other and are generally nice to each other in day-to-day interactions. They can see that being passive aggressive isn’t the route to success. That asking for things directly is probably the best way to get what they want. That saying no to things they don’t want is much easier than saying yes to everything when they really mean no.”
The first sentence is curious to me. I need more context here to understand why you think Chileans don’t trust each other and are not nice to each other? As someone who was born in Chile, but grew up in the U.S., I personally haven’t experienced what you describe, in my many travels back. I do think that Chileans tend to be a bit more skeptical and suspicious of others than Americans generally are, but then Chileans look at Americans as being naive and too innocent. Maybe instead of criticizing, it would be best to try to understand why they are that way? They may have good reason to be the way they are, and in any case, who cares? I find Americans to be way too optimistic and naive, but who am I to judge? It’s a lack of understanding on my part, most likely.
The second sentence is also interesting to me, as you describe Chileans as being passive aggressive and indirect. I think Chilean culture is just one were people see being to direct as rude and unnecessary. From their perspective, they may feel they are being very direct by not immediately agreeing with you (for example), but from your cultural perspective it looks like they are just being passive aggressive. I think Chileans in general are really concerned about not hurting people’s feelings, not wanting to be too blunt, and that may seem rude to you, but to them they may be expecting you to “get it” that they are saying no in a kind and polite way. I know I have made many a social faux pas by being what I thought was honest, but to my Chilean friends and family, rude. I’m often told “nobody asked your opinion” or “nobody asked you to be so honest”. In the U.S. we tend to believe that people want to hear our opinions, especially if we think they will improve a situation, but in other cultures this can come off as arrogant and presumptuous. We in the U.S. often think people need to be more direct, but in other cultures, they would really rather we Americans just SHUT UP.
Again, I get how indirect and passive aggressive communication must seem to someone that is not Chilean. But I don’t think Chileans are wrong, or that you are wrong. Simply that we must adjust our behavior and expectations to the place were are living. We have to adjust our perspective to reach a common understanding. For example, my Japanese friend will never say no. Instead, she will say “maybe” or “let me think about it”. I thought ok, I’ll give you time to think about it. But she was actually saying no! I had to learn to understand what she meant from her cultural perspective, instead of forcing him to change her way to suit me.
In short, I agree with you 100% that everyone should live abroad for a good length of time to gain a wider perspective on the world and their own cultural biases and assumptions. However, that goes both ways, and you should check your own biases before expecting others to change to suit you.
Good luck to you and thank you for sharing your perspective!
Maybe The best thing Americans can do is stay in America. Instead of picking apart other people’s customs and cultures with their distorted world view.
I know this article is pretty old, and i agree with some of the things you say. Being a Chilean who’s family lives abroad in the Netherlands ( I personally carry the Dutch passport too) I have noticed a lot of things you say. I just want to discuss some points, first of all, people liking darker skin and hair is seen in a few countries, for example, in the Netherlands it can happen, but its more a capricce of some people for the “hot” latina or latin people than an actual taste of features, in france there is a lot of darker skin people so its not seen as something so exotic. Another thing is that you mentioned countries like Japan and south korea, Where i can assure you, coming as a common middle class person, even from a western country, is a disadvantage. My whole point is you try talking about developed countries, when your experience seems reduced to a US citizen point of view, and even most of the things you point out of chileans are mostly true, you should consider how every developed country is so different to the point the way you may be correct talking about the US, may be absolutely wrong when speaking about other countries.